Shimano BIOPACE is back

rjohnlag

Shimano Biopace, big in the 1990's, makes a welcome return to cycling.
The relaunch of Biopace is a quiet affair, called the Dura Ace FC7700 Triathlon chainring, and is a response to the success of Osymetric and Q Rings chainrings. While Biopace is essentially an ovalised chainring design the Osymetric and Q Rings are a slightly different development of a non-round chainring, to be what they consider a more optimum shape for pedal stroke efficiency. Except, the prices of Osymetric and Q Rings are outragous and that cannot go unnoticed by Shimano.
Keep watching, people, because where Dura Ace FC7700 leads the cheaper Shimano models will follow and Shimano will be selling Biopace, or equivalent, at all prices by next year.
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kirby700

No way! I remember those bloody things from the 90's, played havoc with my knees after about 5 hours riding.

Pokerface

cadseen wrote:

Well i for one, wont be buying any non round chainring.
I am not convinced there is any benefit ..

Have you tried them?


I have. And there is a definite benefit (TO ME). Can't speak for anyone else though.


I was sceptical at first. No longer.

daviesee

No. I got drawn in the first time round and will not be repeating the experience.
I am Campagnolo these days anyway.............

Unclemonty121

Wow, so shall I take them off my 90's Muddy Fox to be ahead of the game?

Pokerface

cadseen wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

cadseen wrote:

Well i for one, wont be buying any non round chainring.
I am not convinced there is any benefit ..

Have you tried them?


I have. And there is a definite benefit (TO ME). Can't speak for anyone else though.


I was sceptical at first. No longer.

No I have not tried them, the fashion wont last long IMO
Its also very hard to proove as a benefit, how do you show there is a definate benefit ?

Ermm... the 'fashion' as you call it has been around for many years now and is actually growing, not going away. More and more riders (pro and amateur) trying oval rings.

And how do you show there is a benefit? Power testing.


I'll grant that they aren't for everyone and there will always be doubters to various types of technology. However, if they were as bogus as some people say - they wouldn't have lasted this long. (Carlos Sastre won the Tour de France with a set on his bike - so possibly they do NOTHING, but also possible they help).

Buckled_Rims

cadseen wrote:

No I have not tried them, the fashion wont last long IMO
Its also very hard to proove as a benefit, how do you show there is a definate benefit ?

Weight lifting/muscle building machines based on cam leverage designs have been around for a very long time and work effectively at isolating certain muscles, depending on which machine it is. The rings are based on the same principle, they are shaped to provide power where your thigh muscles are best pushing and relieve the effort of the return stroke. I've never used them, but wouldn't mind trying them.

Proving is simple, if a professional uses them, then they work for that person. They've probably tested them more in 6 months then you or I will in 10 years of riding. Other then that there's lots of power meters and strain gauges at sports laboratories.

ynyswen24

google Chris Bell and Highpath Engineering...

LangerDan

The "high point" of the Biopace chainring is shifted approximately 90 degrees to the high point of the Osymmetric / Rotor Q-Ring.

They can't both be right.

andrew_s

Pokerface wrote:

Ermm... the 'fashion' as you call it has been around for many years now and is actually growing, not going away. More and more riders (pro and amateur) trying oval rings.

Oval chainrings have been around, on and off, since about 1890. The fact that they aren't in general use tells me that there's no advantage in using them.
Generally, there's a fad for them every so often. A few people like them, but not enough to sustain their general availability, so after a few years they are gone until the next revival.

danowat

Surely the power you, the engine, can put out is what it is?, by changing the leverage point makes no difference, as the power is the same, you'd get the same effect by adding more teeth to the chainring as all you are doing is effectively increasing the diameter on the downstroke

bristolpete

I have been running Rotors for 7 months now and will never ever go back to round chain rings. When you go back on another bike to test or ride a mates rig, the difference is stunning and with round rings you literally peddle in two half circles. As Pokerface says you have to try it to believe it, but its something else.

StageWinner

The power the rider puts out does not change. But the use of that power gets used in a more efficient way (if that makes any sense). By changing the effective gear ratio, it's a little like shifting up and down through your gears on every pedal stroke - making it easier at the hardest part of the pedal stroke and harder at the easiest point.


They reduce the dead spot in your pedal stroke and make the pedal stroke smoother.

However, perfect spinners need not apply.

Buckled_Rims

Smokin Joe wrote:

If oval chainrings are so good, WHY HAS NO-ONE BROUGHT OUT A PAIR OF OVAL WHEELS???????

Answer that, go on!!!!!

There's only one word for you....Wankel.

It's called a reuleaux triangle wheel, although I believe the axle would be a "bit of a design problem" on a bicycle.

nferrar

Think I'll try oval rings the next time I need to change mine, the principle is pretty clear to me. Not seen the DA bio-pace but I'm assuming Shimano learnt their mistake from the 90's and the 'bulge' will be in the correct place this time...

rolf_f

nferrar wrote:

Think I'll try oval rings the next time I need to change mine, the principle is pretty clear to me. Not seen the DA bio-pace but I'm assuming Shimano learnt their mistake from the 90's and the 'bulge' will be in the correct place this time...

I think it was in the correct place in the 90s. Actually, I found Biopace fine though I don't think I can tell the difference enough to make any effort to change. You also have the slightly compromised shifting but then I didn't really notice that either

StageWinner

The beauty of Q-RIngs is that you can actually move the 'bulge' around to the point in your pedal stroke that suits you. Bio-Pace only had one setting so you were stuck with the 'bulge' where they decided it should go.

Q-Rings have 5 different settings (and I think you can even fine-tune it more than that if you want). Some settings are better for sprinting, while others are better for spinning or climbing or TT-ing.

wiffachip

i won't be buying them, cos I still have them on one of my bikes

in fact it's such a nice night I think I'll pop out on it for half an hour

steel frame and biopace, nice

springtide9

Thiunk biopace was probably not subtle enough. still riding round rings and will probably not change.. but it kind of make sense when you think of 'stroke'.
They are obviously very 'Marmite'

Rule74Please

The optimal system was ROTOR CRANKS.

This provided the best use of the power cycle of a rider.

Not suitable for today's integrated frames and most of us were scared of the weight "penalty"

I still have a pair of these and wish I had a frame suitable for them

avoidingmyphd

this thread is an evidence free zone, which is strange is a sport which now obsessively measures and benchmarks everything that is possible to measure.
given that it is possible to measure power through the cranks, I wonder why there's no evidence?

Pokerface

avoidingmyphd wrote:

this thread is an evidence free zone, which is strange is a sport which now obsessively measures and benchmarks everything that is possible to measure.
given that it is possible to measure power through the cranks, I wonder why there's no evidence?

It's out there. No one can be bothered to search for it!

jibberjim

rjohnlag wrote:

Shimano Biopace, big in the 1990's, makes a welcome return to cycling.
The relaunch of Biopace is a quiet affair, called the Dura Ace FC7700 Triathlon chainring, and is a response to the success of Osymetric and Q Rings chainrings.

This is garbage presumably? Why would Shimano release a new product with the same designation as a 3 year old chainring which was perfectly round and boring 9 speed?

danowat

avoidingmyphd wrote:

given that it is possible to measure power through the cranks, I wonder why there's no evidence?

Because they don't alter power

avoidingmyphd

Pokerface wrote:

avoidingmyphd wrote:

this thread is an evidence free zone, which is strange is a sport which now obsessively measures and benchmarks everything that is possible to measure.
given that it is possible to measure power through the cranks, I wonder why there's no evidence?

It's out there. No one can be bothered to search for it!

The main obstacle to selling lots of oval chainrings, as this thread shows, is that people don't believe they work. Are you expecting me to believe that Shimano/Rotor etc can't be bothered to publicise the evidence and thereby make lots and lots of money?

jibberjim is right though, this thread is a bit weird. the product doesn't even exist.

Rule74Please

Remember Sastre used ROTOR rings in 2008 to win the tour. Even though the team was sponsored by FSA

pb21

I guess that the manufactures would say with oval chain rings you will be able to ride at a higher average wattage over a period of time, or ride at the same wattage for longer, because it enables a more efficient use of your muscles or something?

rowman

words of wisdom form Sheldon Brown

http://sheldonbrown.com/biopace.html

Pokerface

avoidingmyphd wrote:

this thread is an evidence free zone, which is strange is a sport which now obsessively measures and benchmarks everything that is possible to measure.
given that it is possible to measure power through the cranks, I wonder why there's no evidence?

If you have the time....


Q-Rings Provide 3% Increase in Power: Q-Rings Test Results, University of Valladolid (540k, PDF)

Summary of Q-Rings Study: Summary of Report on Performance provided by ROTOR Q-Rings (74k, PDF)

Preservation of Knee Health using RS4X: University of Zaragoza (Spain) Department of Physiotherapy (53k, PDF)

Preliminary Study Showing Wattage Increases with RS4X: University of Ferrara (Italy) Sports Center of Biomedical Study (950k, PDF)

Metabolic Improvements and Lowered Lactic Acid Production using RS4X: University of Valladolid (Spain) School of Physiotherapy, Department of Physiology (201k, PDF)

Increase in Speed with Same Heart Rate using RS4X: Senikrol Sports Medicine (70k, PDF)

avoidingmyphd

Thanks Pokerface. I'm not sure it's very robust (it's not published; the first uses an obviously flawed protocol, one is just a letter!) but you have done better than the manufacturers and anecdote peddlars. Touché.

rolf_f

Logically, surely the obvious conclusion is that whilst it maybe difficult to work out what form of ovalised chainring is optimum, you should be able to do better than with a round chainring (which, logically, doesn't make much sense).