QR vs allen/hex bolt skewer tension...

TuckerUK

I've searched (here and elsewhere) and read a fair few topics on this, including many ending up with allen/hex key skewers snapping, but I've found none that address correct tension (i.e. how you know when a allen/hex skewer is tight enough) using the obvious cup & cone bearing play removal method.

So, with cup & cone hubs correctly adjusted to give some freeplay with a loose QR that tightening the QR removes, how easy is it to remove that same play using a allen/hex skewer?

cooldad

Cone and cups should be adjusted properly and the locknut keeps them tight. Tightening up the QR or axle nuts should not make any difference as they are tightening up on the locknuts.
The cones shouldn't move.

Anonymous

cooldad wrote:

Cone and cups should be adjusted properly and the locknut keeps them tight. Tightening up the QR or axle nuts should not make any difference as they are tightening up on the locknuts.
The cones shouldn't move.

This is an odd, and counter intuitive one, CD.
When you set your cones and cups properly, there will be a tiny tine amount of play, and when the QR is done up, that play is eliminated.
I've never quite WHY, but it does actually work. it's how I was always taught to set them up.

The Rookie

Never seen that myself, sure you weren't looking at a movement of the axle in the dropouts which often are set slightly wide and are pulled in by the skewer?

Simon

Anonymous

The Beginner wrote:

Never seen that myself, sure you weren't looking at a movement of the axle in the dropouts which often are set slightly wide and are pulled in by the skewer?

Simon

Nope, definitely the bearings. It's not "loose" at all, just some barely perceptible play. It's a cruiosity!

cooldad

Done it plenty of times and always set up so they are the right tightness so probably imperceptible is the right word.
Counterintuitive maybe, but I can't see how a nut can move more than a billimetre if it is already tight.
It's not something I've ever taken into account.

cooldad

The more I post, the more my standard of literacy seems to drop.

timpop

cooldad wrote:

The more I post, the more my standard of literacy seems to drop.

You're going to need to enroll in school again, init.

TuckerUK

Cone and cups should be adjusted properly and the locknut keeps them tight. Tightening up the QR or axle nuts should not make any difference as they are tightening up on the locknuts.

Wow, thought this was pretty basic stuff.

Park Tools 'Quick release hubs have hollow axles that flex slightly when the quick release is closed. Hub bearing adjustments must account for this extra pressure. When a quick release hub is not clamped tight in the frame, there should be a slight amount of play in the axle. This play disappears when the hub and wheel are clamped in the frame.'

http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/hub-overhaul-and-adjustment

Sheldon Brown 'No binding with no play is the proper adjustment for solid-axle hubs, but if you have quick-release hubs, there is an additional, complicating factor. When you tighten the quick-release lever, it tends to compress the axle just a little bit. If the adjustment was just right with the wheel on your bench, it will be too tight when the wheel is installed and the quick release tightened. For this reason, quick-release hubs should be adjusted so that there is a very sight amount of play in the axle when the wheel is not installed. This play should disappear when the quick release is tightened to the dropouts.'

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/hubs.html

OK, now we all know how to adjust cup & cones hubs correctly, can anyone answer the original question?

TuckerUK

P.S.

Cooldad, this is something you can check yourself in like 5 seconds, maybe on someone else's bike who has done the adjustment correctly. Slight play in the hub goes away when the QR is correctly tightened.

supersonic

It is paramount that the allen is tight enough to secure the wheel though. Is there no torque values? Either way, some experimentation is key, and I would err on the side of caution if no torque values are available.

I should imagine the best thing to do is experiment with the bearing adjustment, and to tighten the allen head until there is no play ensuring it is tight enough (wobbling the wheel from side to side will show that), then spin the wheel using the 'valve drop' test.

TuckerUK

I don't own them yet, and I'm not going to buy them if they snap before the point that correct axle tension (i.e. bearing play removed as per QR) is reached. Hence this post!

supersonic

If they have a recommended torque that is safe to retain the wheel, then they will not snap, and is a case of adjusting the bearings to suit that torque or safe fastening force.

As this varies on many QRs anyway depending on design, not to mention the axle type, then is trial and error. Usually it is so slight that people don't even realise.

I don't understand why you would adjust the bearings too loose, then overtighten the skewer to remove the play when you could achieve the same with tighter bearing adjustment and less skewer force.

But as above it does depend on the model, and I would be trying to find literature on the exact models.

gtd.

I've snapped a Halo or a Outland allen head QR by over torquing it whilst checking it just before just before a ride... thankfully I had a spare

TuckerUK

If they have a recommended torque that is safe to retain the wheel, then they will not snap, and is a case of adjusting the bearings to suit that torque or safe fastening force.

As this varies on many QRs anyway depending on design, not to mention the axle type, then is trial and error. Usually it is so slight that people don't even realise.

I don't understand why you would adjust the bearings too loose, then overtighten the skewer to remove the play when you could achieve the same with tighter bearing adjustment and less skewer force.

Because that is the correct way to A: adjust cup & cone bearings for QR use, and B: the correct way to tighten a QR (i.e. tight). Please read the above links I posted.

So, you think I should readjust my bearings each time I switch between hex skewer and QR on three separate bikes?

Can anyone answer the original question?

Please?

Anonymous

TuckerUK wrote:

Can anyone answer the original question?

Please?

Nobody knows, essentially. Sonic is on the money, "check their reccomended torque", but apart from that, we don't know.

What makes you want them anyway?

TuckerUK

You mean to tell me out of the thousands sold, no one thought to check they performed the same function as the QRs they replaced? That's truly bizarre, and just more than a little scary.

Why? To stop kids nicking the QRs of course.

Anonymous

TuckerUK wrote:

You mean to tell me out of the thousands sold, no one thought to check they performed the same function as the QRs they replaced?

What? No, WE HERE, just don't know the torque values.

Kids steal your QRs? REALLY? :shock:

lvquestpaddler

What an odd post and the OP is getting a bit nippy with everyone trying to help him to boot.
I'd never heard of "allen QR"'s and to me sounds a bit oxymoronic. Why not save yourself the sleepless nights and change to solid axles?No play, no problem surely? And get a padlock. Or just get a padlock and keep the standard, single type Q/R's?

cooldad

Ironically, although I've steered plenty of people to Parktools and SB site, I've never read those particular links. Never even thought about it.
Been fiddling with cup and cone since I was a kid and never had problems with solid or QR axles (although in the 70's 'QR' was a bloody great wingnut).
Guess I must just be lucky.
I do however have an '88 Rockhopper still on it's original hubs and bearings, so can't be doing too badly.
One of these days I might even buy a torque wrench.

cooldad

yeehaamcgee wrote:

TuckerUK wrote:

You mean to tell me out of the thousands sold, no one thought to check they performed the same function as the QRs they replaced?

What? No, WE HERE, just don't know the torque values.

Kids steal your QRs? REALLY? :shock:

Hint - Norfolk, not only light fingers, but eleven of them.

TuckerUK

just don't know the torque values.

Thanks for letting me knew that. Bears no relation to what I what asking though.

What an odd post and the OP is getting a bit nippy with everyone trying to help him to boot.

Not at all, only getting 'nippy' with people that didn't read or understand the original post, don't know the correct way to adjust a hub, and/or failed to answer what was (i thought) a fairly simple question. Perfectly justifiable 'nippyness' in my opinion.

I'd never heard of "allen QR"'s and to me sounds a bit oxymoronic.

Me neither. Need to read the thread again?

And get a padlock. Or just get a padlock and keep the standard, single type Q/R's?

And that would stop my QRs being stolen how exactly?

Cooldad, it's the done thing in polite company when you've accused someone of being wrong when they aren't, to apologise.

TuckerUK

Hint - Norfolk, not only light fingers, but eleven of them.

Lol, make all the Norfolk jokes you like. I'm Surrey born and bred!

cooldad

Think you are taking things a bit seriously. I made no 'accusations' just expressed my opinion. If I had to apologise everytime I wrote cr4p on here I'd double my post count.

But I have been thinking (takes time) about this a bit. Conclusion is that the only way to see if the cones are right is to clamp the wheels in and spin them, so I suppose the extra tensioning will come out then, and will then adjust slightly as necessary, so fine tuning will happen automatically anyway.

Anonymous

TuckerUK wrote:

just don't know the torque values.

Thanks for letting me knew that. Bears no relation to what I what asking though.

Yes it does. The only way to know when they're tightened properly is by torquing them. None of us know what the proper torque should be, however. Maybe there's something on the manufacturer's site, or in the box when you buy them

I still can't get over people nicking your QR skewers, are things so bad round there that any shiny metal is considered "PRECIOUS" in a Gollum-esque fashion?
Maybe some bog standard Shimano ones would draw less attention.

supersonic

So, you think I should readjust my bearings each time I switch between hex skewer and QR on three separate bikes?

If you want PERFECT adjustment YES. The whole point is that nothing is set in stone!

There is no set generic numbers for this as is so many combos of parts, precise adjustment of bearings is trial and error within the operating instructions for said fastener.

You work by clamping force limits, then adjust the bearing adjustment to suit FOR PERFECT ADJUSTMENT

Your question has been answered. Find the literature to the parts you want to own. Then adjust bearings to suit the correct clamping force NOT the other way round.

For most people, a hint of play with most fasteners is enough, and when the wheel is clamped things are acceptable. I repeat again, DO NOT over tighten skewers to relieve play you adjusted in to start.