Police enforcing ASL's - finally!

bigmat

Saw a lone copper at the north end of London Bridge this morning ticking off motorbikes / cars who had strayed into the ASL and making them reverse where possible. Bravo - finally!

Of course, 100 yards round the corner the next ASL was full of motorbikes as usual, but its a start at least...

kelsen

The cynic in me says he was probably a bit bored rather than it being a widespread directive.

Headhuunter

Hallalujah! I wrote a snotty letter to the City Police back in April after a police motorcyclist who had been sat square in the ASL with a taxi, actually approached me on my bike to ask me to move BACK to the ASL (which was blocked). When I pointed out that he and the taxi had been blocking the ASL, he snarled "don't gimme that..." and rode off...

Yesterday morning I saw a police van with its front 2 wheels sat square in the ASL....

I've almost got to the point that I pretty much ignore ASL and place myself ahead of the traffic at the front of the junction. If drivers and motorcyclists want the ASL they can have it, I'll just create my own...

CyclingBantam

Headhuunter wrote:

Hallalujah! I wrote a snotty letter to the City Police back in April after a police motorcyclist who had been sat square in the ASL with a taxi, actually approached me on my bike to ask me to move BACK to the ASL (which was blocked). When I pointed out that he and the taxi had been blocking the ASL, he snarled "don't gimme that..." and rode off...

Yesterday morning I saw a police van with its front 2 wheels sat square in the ASL....

I've almost got to the point that I pretty much ignore ASL and place myself ahead of the traffic at the front of the junction. If drivers and motorcyclists want the ASL they can have it, I'll just create my own...

I have always done that. If I'm honest I couldn't give two hoots about a line on the road if acrs are pulled up in it. I will sit ahead of them where I am in a safer position for all concerned.

The Rookie

Headhuunter wrote:

Yesterday morning I saw a police van with its front 2 wheels sat square in the ASL....

Which of course is no indication that any offence occured is it?

Simon

gaz545

I've heard on the grape vine that they will be looking at this a bit more in central london.

The Rookie

Hopefully so, little point spending the money on the legislation, paint and textured surfaces if there is no enforcement when its obvious so many ignore them.

Simon

sketchley

I've fired off a couple of letters on this subject myself to both TFL and LCC. I've been assured it being looked into by met police. One thing I complained about was police enforcing RJLs while ignoring ASL offence technically the same offence. I was advised to report this to met police when I next see it with time date etc. I have no idea who to report it too though!

I also commented on mandatory cycle lanes, apparently not a police matter but one for "parking" at local council. I guess embankment and CS8 are Westminster?

Butterd2

Good, I had a chat with a motorbike in the ASL north of Tower Bridge last week:

Me: nice bicycle
Biker: you lot all jump red lights, most cyclists are arseholes
Me: I agree but I'm not one of them, many motorcyclists are arseholes too
Biker: I'm not one of them
Me: Doesn't look that it to me.

The lights then changed and he cut straight across in front of me turning left from the right hand lane. Knobber.

Headhuunter

Butterd2 wrote:

Good, I had a chat with a motorbike in the ASL north of Tower Bridge last week:

Me: nice bicycle
Biker: you lot all jump red lights, most cyclists are arseholes
Me: I agree but I'm not one of them, many motorcyclists are arseholes too
Biker: I'm not one of them
Me: Doesn't look that it to me.

The lights then changed and he cut straight across in front of me turning left from the right hand lane. Knobber.

I seriously find that motorcyclists are the most dangerous road users I encounter. I'm not saying that they are all idiots but there are plenty of them. Twice in the last week I have been overtaken (undertaken?) on the left in a bus lane by motorcyclists on OKR zooming past at 40mph+ with a hairs breadth between me and them...

People go on about buses - there are really not a problem as far as I'm concerned, it's always motorbikes and mopeds....

Origamist

The DfT and TFL are consulting on ASLs at the moment and hopefully this will clear up some of the current anomalies and make enforcement more straightforward. However, that is still some way off as I understand.

The next prong of TFL campaigning is "Give a Metre" i.e allow other road users space when passing.

hfidgen

Give me 15 mins around trafalgar square area and I'll be able to find you a Bus, Lorry, Van, Car, Motorbike, Cyclist, Taxi, Scooter, Ped who fits this "arsehole" description.

I don't think you can assert that any of these are more dangerous than the rest - you just get good 'uns and bad 'uns (and more often than not... just careless 'uns)

I don't really have a problem with ASL blockers. Half the time they braked hard to not jump a light and ended up in there, or just queued in there as the traffic was heavy ahead. It's just London traffic, they're not being dangerous or even that inconvenient really.

Headhunter has got the right idea I think - just plonk yourself infront of whatever is there and ignore the bleating if they try to start an argument. You're not RLJ'ing, that already means your 100% better than 75% of the other cyclists out there.

Origamist

hfidgen wrote:

Headhunter has got the right idea I think - just plonk yourself infront of whatever is there and ignore the bleating if they try to start an argument. You're not RLJ'ing, that already means your 100% better than 75% of the other cyclists out there.

If you pop yourself in front of the second stop line (ahead of the ALS reservoir/zone) you are technically jumping the light.

IME, City of London Police sometimes fine cyclists for doing just this or offer them the choice of attending an awareness course!

Headhuunter

Origamist wrote:

hfidgen wrote:

Headhunter has got the right idea I think - just plonk yourself infront of whatever is there and ignore the bleating if they try to start an argument. You're not RLJ'ing, that already means your 100% better than 75% of the other cyclists out there.

If you pop yourself in front of the second stop line (ahead of the ALS reservoir/zone) you are technically jumping the light.

IME, City of London Police sometimes fine cyclists for doing just this or offer them the choice of attending an awareness course!

I have never been fined I just find it utterly ironic that they penalise cyclists for jumping the ASL but don't even bother with motorists IN the ASL. I've seen them jumping on cyclists a number of times but I can think of only 1 time I have seen a police officer say anything to a motorist....

richVSrich

i dont believe that two wrongs make a right...if there is a vehicle in the asl, they are in the wrong, if you are stopping in the middle of the junction you are in the wrong...if you feel unsafe hugging the kerb on the left, just take the primary and wait for the light...then you get the added bonus of drafting

Origamist

Headhuunter wrote:

I have never been fined I just find it utterly ironic that they penalise cyclists for jumping the ASL but don't even bother with motorists IN the ASL. I've seen them jumping on cyclists a number of times but I can think of only 1 time I have seen a police officer say anything to a motorist....

It is certainly unusual to see any enforcement at ASLs (regardless of vehicle type). However, last summer there was a police blitz along CS7 (after it was finished) and dozens of drivers were ticketed for ASL encroachment as were dozens of cyclists for RLJing.

dhope

richVSrich wrote:

i dont believe that two wrongs make a right...if there is a vehicle in the asl, they are in the wrong, if you are stopping in the middle of the junction you are in the wrong...if you feel unsafe hugging the kerb on the left, just take the primary and wait for the light...then you get the added bonus of drafting

Drafting, in London? Traffic doesn't move fast enough
I place myself in front of cars if they're in the ASL. Technically wrong but I can live with it and I'd probably argue the toss with a driver/ped/copper that would call me on it. Not that any ever have.

mark1964

I'm working in London at the moment and have seen tons of motorbikes in the ASL. Last week, I saw a left turning cyclist coming out of Baylis Road into Waterloo Road who was cut up by a biker who barged into the ASL on red. In some of my own experiences in Bristol, I have been cut up and sworn at by bikers who force their way into the ASL. Just what is wrong with these people?

Could everyone start photographing this and deluge TFL and Mayor Boris with them. They want to let the motorbike fraternity into bus lanes. In my opinion, motorbikes should not be allowed in bus lanes due to their continual abuse of the ASL. Frankly, if they can't respect a safety space for cyclists since they are too impatient, they should never be allowed anywhere near a bus lane :evil:

sketchley

Origamist wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

I have never been fined I just find it utterly ironic that they penalise cyclists for jumping the ASL but don't even bother with motorists IN the ASL. I've seen them jumping on cyclists a number of times but I can think of only 1 time I have seen a police officer say anything to a motorist....

It is certainly unusual to see any enforcement at ASLs (regardless of vehicle type). However, last summer there was a police blitz along CS7 (after it was finished) and dozens of drivers were ticketed for ASL encroachment as were dozens of cyclists for RLJing.

I got fined in that blitz for RLJing. It stopped me but that a different story.

However when questioning the traffic cop on the motor bike who pulled me over, he told me that there was nothing he could do about ASLs providing the motor vehicle stops at the 2nd line! He was adamant that passing the first line even on red was not an offence and that he and his team had had discussions about it and that was the advice. And this was a freaking traffic cop!

I'm a bit more savy these days so if it happened again (note I don't RLJ) I will ask for name and number and report it.

But seriously what chance do we have when traffic cops don't know the rules!

kamiokande

richVSrich wrote:

i dont believe that two wrongs make a right...if there is a vehicle in the asl, they are in the wrong, if you are stopping in the middle of the junction you are in the wrong...if you feel unsafe hugging the kerb on the left, just take the primary and wait for the light...then you get the added bonus of drafting

Trouble is you may not know if there's anyone in the ASL as you approach. Then you get there and there's something blocking it you're limited as to where you can position yourself.

bigmat

kamiokande wrote:

richVSrich wrote:

i dont believe that two wrongs make a right...if there is a vehicle in the asl, they are in the wrong, if you are stopping in the middle of the junction you are in the wrong...if you feel unsafe hugging the kerb on the left, just take the primary and wait for the light...then you get the added bonus of drafting

Trouble is you may not know if there's anyone in the ASL as you approach. Then you get there and there's something blocking it you're limited as to where you can position yourself.

Indeed - motorbikes have a particularly irritating habit of blocking all the filter lanes to the ASL (even though they have no right to be there) and preventing cyclists getting to the front of the queue. And don't tell me I should sit in primary sucking up fumes. The safest, healthiest place to be at a set of lights is almost always in front of the traffic.

Butterd2

[quote="BigMat"
Indeed - motorbikes have a particularly irritating habit of blocking all the filter lanes to the ASL (even though they have no right to be there) and preventing cyclists getting to the front of the queue. And don't tell me I should sit in primary sucking up fumes. The safest, healthiest place to be at a set of lights is almost always in front of the traffic.[/quote]

My perception is that since being allowed into bus lanes more motorbikes keep left of the traffic and use the cycle lanes (often blocking them) than before when they all rode down the centre of the road.

Butterd2

Headhuunter wrote:

People go on about buses - there are really not a problem as far as I'm concerned, it's always motorbikes and mopeds....

I tend to agree but still believe that Peds are the most dangerous things on the roads.

plowmar

I may be wrong, and I'm sure someone will tell me, but it is my understanding that if a car, lorry whatever enters a ASL and has to stop because the lights change then they are not committing any offence.

It is only if the ASL is clear and anyone apart from cyclists enters after the lights have changed - this doesn't seem to be the situation complained of though.

CyclingBantam

plowmar wrote:

I may be wrong, and I'm sure someone will tell me, but it is my understanding that if a car, lorry whatever enters a ASL and has to stop because the lights change then they are not committing any offence.

It is only if the ASL is clear and anyone apart from cyclists enters after the lights have changed - this doesn't seem to be the situation complained of though.

That is my understanding too however, why is the rule built like that. This surely means that people will always pull in to it and wait while the lights change. I thought the point at junctions was you only pull out if it is clear to cross the junction.

Origamist

Butterd2 wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

People go on about buses - there are really not a problem as far as I'm concerned, it's always motorbikes and mopeds....

I tend to agree but still believe that Peds are the most dangerous things on the roads.

And kamikaze slugs are the most dangerous things on the pavement.

mark1964

Check out rules 177 & 178:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_070332

There is provision in law for drivers who might consider it unsafe to stop in time, maybe on wet or icy road. However, there's no excuse for motorcyclists who filter all the way down the left or right and deliberately enter the box on red. This is what 99% of motorcyclists do in my experience. They also block the cycle lanes :evil:

Butterd2

Origamist wrote:

Butterd2 wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

People go on about buses - there are really not a problem as far as I'm concerned, it's always motorbikes and mopeds....

I tend to agree but still believe that Peds are the most dangerous things on the roads.

And kamikaze slugs are the most dangerous things on the pavement.

Can't argue with that.

sketchley

plowmar wrote:

I may be wrong, and I'm sure someone will tell me, but it is my understanding that if a car, lorry whatever enters a ASL and has to stop because the lights change then they are not committing any offence.

It is only if the ASL is clear and anyone apart from cyclists enters after the lights have changed - this doesn't seem to be the situation complained of though.

The law says you must stop at the first line if the lights are on Red, and you should stop at the first line if on Amber unless it is not safe to do so. The same rules apply for the 2nd line.

Where this get complicated is that if you have already crossed the first line, but not the second when the lights change the law states you must stop at the 2nd line.

Therefore you can be stopped in the ASL legally for example if you entered the box on green but were prevented from exiting due to traffic then the lights changed.

Now I've heard motorcyclist particularly use the defence you didn't see me enter did you, when I've question them on being in ASL. However I'm not the law and if I see a motorcycle in the ASL and the road ahead is clear, I find it very hard to believe that they entered the box on green or just amber, only to see the lights change and stop before the front line. It just wouldn't happen and I'll tell them that.

There have been a few time recently where I've seen the ASL full of motorbikes, plus blocking routes to it, and big line of cyclist waiting outside. :evil:

feltkuota

Reality check:

There are good drivers, motorcyclists, bus drivers and cyclists. There are also bad examples of each. Scooter riders are however always sh*t