steel v titanium

stevesavage71

Anyone have experience of the two, im looking at a xcr columbus frame or a titanium, both bespoke and both about the same weight. It will be used for training and club rides (4hrs +-)
Something draws me towards the steel, but it just sounds like a step backwards.
Thanks for any help.
P.S. I have a carbon frame now but am lookig for something a bit more classic

TMR

Either will be fine. Neither will be a step back. Choose the components wisely and there's no reason why it should weigh any more than a carbon framed bike.

I've ridden a steel and titanium Enigma and the Ti gets my vote - very zingy on the road - a wonderful ride.

stevesavage71

enigma is one of the companies i'm looking at, after talking to them, they reckon the steel is the real zingy one. (could you explian zingy please)

giant_man

Went to last year's Enigma open day, and I tried two titanium frames (both 3AL-2.5V and 6AL 4V) and the Extensor XCr. Both ti frames I didn't like, felt wooden and dead, smooth yes but for me no feeling and therefore not to my liking.

Complete disappointment next to the wonderful Xcr stainless steel Extensor, which was yes 'zingy' (good expression) and so damn responsive when out of the saddle. Amazing frames.

sungod

i've got a cinelli xcr, it's lovely

steel, mmm

stevesavage71

What is it with steel, that everyone likes?
I'm really close to ordering the extensor.....but my head says titanium is a better material....by the way the cinelli...georgous!!

FransJacques

For a big frame that Cinelli is stunning. How much was it? £1400?

I have an 853 and a 6/4 Ti and the steel always gives me a smile. See if Salsa still make their steel True Temper bike, it looked like a good design and was radically sloping to minimize weight and flex.

Try a 853 or 953 from Rourke or Roberts or somewhere close to where you live so you can get to know the builder. That said the DeRosa Corum is lovely looking.

sungod

stevesavage71 wrote:

What is it with steel, that everyone likes?
I'm really close to ordering the extensor.....but my head says titanium is a better material....by the way the cinelli...georgous!!

i dithered between xcr and ti for months

i began thinking ti, but i've had non-bike ti stuff fatigue after a few years, so wasn't 100% sure about longevity, that's when i first found that stainless was an option, and the dithering began

one day i got to see an xcr, just by chance, that was it, decision made, plus it appealed to my retro leanings

i'm pretty tall, and not as flexible as i used to be, so custom dimensions, then 6 months wait while guys in milan had an espresso between every measure, cut, weld and polish, then took all august on holiday to prepare themselves for the finale, came back, had a few more espressos, and one day i had a frame

no regrets, i've never ridden anything like it, just makes me happy

but ti or steel, if you are getting a frame made to fit you, it'll be the best!

FransJacques

sungod wrote:

then 6 months wait while guys in milan had an espresso between every measure, cut, weld and polish, then took all august on holiday to prepare themselves for the finale, came back, had a few more espressos, and one day i had a frame!

Ha, you wrote that with a jaunty grin but you know that it wasn't far from the truth :-)

daviesee

FransJacques wrote:

sungod wrote:

then 6 months wait while guys in milan had an espresso between every measure, cut, weld and polish, then took all august on holiday to prepare themselves for the finale, came back, had a few more espressos, and one day i had a frame!

Ha, you wrote that with a jaunty grin but you know that it wasn't far from the truth :-)

Who said he was exagerating? I should know........ :shock:

on-yer-bike

Here is a nice steel bike. Weighs a ton compared to my Cervelo R3-SL but lovely to ride and hand made in Italy. I have briefly ridden a litespeed and it didnt do much for me. I now want a Cinelli like the one above, please keep your pictures to yourself!

BelgianBeerGeek

That is one nice bike 8) . Steel is the real deal - my old Raleigh 531 frame is still a superb ride.

stevesavage71

Thanks for your info...Looks like everyone thinks steel is the deal. Strange I would have thought most would prefer titanium.
I will probably go with the enigma extensor but does anyone know of any other xcr framed bikes to compare to?
Also looking for a review online to try and understand the "Zingy" feel.

sungod

stevesavage71 wrote:

Thanks for your info...Looks like everyone thinks steel is the deal. Strange I would have thought most would prefer titanium.
I will probably go with the enigma extensor but does anyone know of any other xcr framed bikes to compare to?
Also looking for a review online to try and understand the "Zingy" feel.

as far as ride goes, stiff but not harsh, it doesn't feel 'dead', zingy seems a fair description, and of course shiny

aside from extensor, other xcr frames...

cinelli xcr - this is what i've got

pegoretti responsorium - remember how all the espresso meant i waited 6 months for cinelli? well, for a responsorium, dario and co. drink at least the same volume, but now it's ristretto

firefly road - not sure about timing, i don't understand american coffee

haven't heard of any others, but there will be a few speciailist frame makers who can build a frame with xcr

but afaik the xcr tubeset is limited supply, so unless someone has stock it can be a long wait

there are one or two other stainless steel tubesets, 953 for instance, even stronger than xcr, although i think it isn't seamless (xcr is)

this reynolds pdf has a chart comparing various frame materials...

http://reynoldstechnology.biz/assets/pd ... xtract.pdf

...it claims 953 outperforms their listed ti materials weight for weight

on-yer-bike

When I asked Rourke about an unpainted stainless frame they said they would only leave the back half the rear triangle unpainted because of all the welding marks, etc.

inseine

there's no reason why it should weigh any more than a carbon framed bike.

I'm sure there are lots of reasons to buy either but weight isn't one of them. I'm not saying it's a big deal but there's no way they weigh the same as carbon, £ for £.
Some nice bikes in the photos BTW

TMR

inseine wrote:

I'm sure there are lots of reasons to buy either but weight isn't one of them. I'm not saying it's a big deal but there's no way they weigh the same as carbon, £ for £.
Some nice bikes in the photos BTW

There's 100 grams in it if that.

inseine

There's 100 grams in it if that

I said £ for £, therefore, no.

Monty Dog

Apparently waiting list for a Pegoretti Responsorium is something like 2 years because of the limited supply of XCR tubing. I would also consider Marco Bertoletti (MB Bike) but you'd have to go direct to Italy.
There's also a host of US builders such as Indy Fab and Waterford who'll build in stainless too. Depends a lot on how much you want to pay.
'Zinginess' or more accurately modulus of elasticity is what makes steel feel unique. Tubes do need to be matched to weight and style of rider - what might feel 'zingy' to a 10 stone rider is going to feel 'whippy' and flexy to a 14 stone one

inseine

You don't seem to see many lugged steel bikes these days, are they not so fashionable or is it a weight thing?

on-yer-bike

inseine wrote:

There's 100 grams in it if that

I said £ for £, therefore, no.

Definitely much more than 100 g. My Cervelo R3-SL frame weighs about 860 g + fork. The Peg weighs twice that. If you want an ultralight bike don't buy steel. titanium may match the heavier carbons, Im not sure.

antlaff

stevesavage71 wrote:

What is it with steel, that everyone likes?
I'm really close to ordering the extensor.....but my head says titanium is a better material....by the way the cinelli...georgous!!

I Got my Extensor 2 weeks ago and after sorting out my postioning problems (my error) have been in absolute love with it - it zooms up hills and cuts out road buzz. So much so, I was out on Sunday morning in 30mph winds and constant rain and didnt want to come home!!

Herbsman

sungod wrote:

i've got a cinelli xcr, it's lovely

steel, mmm

That looks sick. I love the headtube length too.

w2darren

try looking at Van Nicholas web site, they make beautiful ti bikes, well i am been a bit bias as i will be ordering a Tailor made Astraeus after the summer, cant wait. :l:
good luck with your choice

w2darren

try looking at Van Nicholas web site, they make beautiful ti bikes, well i am been a bit bias as i will be ordering a Tailor made Astraeus after the summer, cant wait. :l:
good luck with your choice

TMR

on-yer-bike wrote:

Definitely much more than 100 g. My Cervelo R3-SL frame weighs about 860 g + fork. The Peg weighs twice that. If you want an ultralight bike don't buy steel. titanium may match the heavier carbons, Im not sure.

Way to go with a completely silly comparison.

A 'standard' carbon frame weighs over 1KG. The Enigma Echo frame is 1250 grams and costs £1K. IMHO, it'll give a more comfortable ride than the R3SL as well. A steel frame in the same geometry will weigh 100 grams more than the Ti version. I know this because I asked Mark Reilly when I visited Enigma.

If you really think 500 grams between the R3SL and the Enigma will make any difference at all then you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

At then end of the day, you should buy what you like to ride the most, but don't get p*ssy about materials because it really doesn't make that much difference.

TMR

antlaff wrote:

I Got my Extensor 2 weeks ago and after sorting out my postioning problems (my error) have been in absolute love with it - it zooms up hills and cuts out road buzz. So much so, I was out on Sunday morning in 30mph winds and constant rain and didnt want to come home!!

To be fair, having spent 2 years in Armagh, that just about describes every day

TMR

inseine wrote:

You don't seem to see many lugged steel bikes these days, are they not so fashionable or is it a weight thing?

You can still get them, but it's a cost issue. Lugged frames take longer to create, so cost more, so you see fewer on the road. Shame really.

http://www.enigmabikes.com/excellence.html

antlaff

The Mad Rapper wrote:

antlaff wrote:

I Got my Extensor 2 weeks ago and after sorting out my postioning problems (my error) have been in absolute love with it - it zooms up hills and cuts out road buzz. So much so, I was out on Sunday morning in 30mph winds and constant rain and didnt want to come home!!

To be fair, having spent 2 years in Armagh, that just about describes every day

haha Armagh is sheltered - I'm on the North Coast

on-yer-bike

The Mad Rapper wrote:

on-yer-bike wrote:

Definitely much more than 100 g. My Cervelo R3-SL frame weighs about 860 g + fork. The Peg weighs twice that. If you want an ultralight bike don't buy steel. titanium may match the heavier carbons, Im not sure.

Way to go with a completely silly comparison.

A 'standard' carbon frame weighs over 1KG. The Enigma Echo frame is 1250 grams and costs £1K. IMHO, it'll give a more comfortable ride than the R3SL as well. A steel frame in the same geometry will weigh 100 grams more than the Ti version. I know this because I asked Mark Reilly when I visited Enigma.

If you really think 500 grams between the R3SL and the Enigma will make any difference at all then you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

At then end of the day, you should buy what you like to ride the most, but don't get p*ssy about materials because it really doesn't make that much difference.

Hold your horses. Somebody said the weight difference was only 100 g between carbon and steel and I dont think it is, even in your example its 350g (and a steel frame weighing only 1350g is very exceptional). I wasn't making any judgements as to which one is better or whether the extra weight matters.

TMR

on-yer-bike wrote:

Hold your horses. Somebody said the weight difference was only 100 g between carbon and steel and I dont think it is, even in your example its 350g (and a steel frame weighing only 1350g is very exceptional). I wasn't making any judgements as to which one is better or whether the extra weight matters.

I said the difference was only 100 grams, but I was talking about Ti compared to carbon, not steel compared to carbon. I think there's been some confusion...