steel v titanium

stevesavage71
stevesavage71 Posts: 54
edited June 2011 in Road buying advice
Anyone have experience of the two, im looking at a xcr columbus frame or a titanium, both bespoke and both about the same weight. It will be used for training and club rides (4hrs +-)
Something draws me towards the steel, but it just sounds like a step backwards.
Thanks for any help.
P.S. I have a carbon frame now but am lookig for something a bit more classic
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Comments

  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    Either will be fine. Neither will be a step back. Choose the components wisely and there's no reason why it should weigh any more than a carbon framed bike.

    I've ridden a steel and titanium Enigma and the Ti gets my vote - very zingy on the road - a wonderful ride.
  • stevesavage71
    stevesavage71 Posts: 54
    enigma is one of the companies i'm looking at, after talking to them, they reckon the steel is the real zingy one. (could you explian zingy please)
  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    Went to last year's Enigma open day, and I tried two titanium frames (both 3AL-2.5V and 6AL 4V) and the Extensor XCr. Both ti frames I didn't like, felt wooden and dead, smooth yes but for me no feeling and therefore not to my liking.

    Complete disappointment next to the wonderful Xcr stainless steel Extensor, which was yes 'zingy' (good expression) and so damn responsive when out of the saddle. Amazing frames.
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 17,496
    i've got a cinelli xcr, it's lovely

    steel, mmm

    liita.jpg
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • stevesavage71
    stevesavage71 Posts: 54
    What is it with steel, that everyone likes?
    I'm really close to ordering the extensor.....but my head says titanium is a better material....by the way the cinelli...georgous!!
  • FransJacques
    FransJacques Posts: 2,148
    For a big frame that Cinelli is stunning. How much was it? £1400?

    I have an 853 and a 6/4 Ti and the steel always gives me a smile. See if Salsa still make their steel True Temper bike, it looked like a good design and was radically sloping to minimize weight and flex.

    Try a 853 or 953 from Rourke or Roberts or somewhere close to where you live so you can get to know the builder. That said the DeRosa Corum is lovely looking.
    When a cyclist has a disagreement with a car; it's not who's right, it's who's left.
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 17,496
    stevesavage71 wrote:
    What is it with steel, that everyone likes?
    I'm really close to ordering the extensor.....but my head says titanium is a better material....by the way the cinelli...georgous!!

    i dithered between xcr and ti for months

    i began thinking ti, but i've had non-bike ti stuff fatigue after a few years, so wasn't 100% sure about longevity, that's when i first found that stainless was an option, and the dithering began

    one day i got to see an xcr, just by chance, that was it, decision made, plus it appealed to my retro leanings

    i'm pretty tall, and not as flexible as i used to be, so custom dimensions, then 6 months wait while guys in milan had an espresso between every measure, cut, weld and polish, then took all august on holiday to prepare themselves for the finale, came back, had a few more espressos, and one day i had a frame

    no regrets, i've never ridden anything like it, just makes me happy

    but ti or steel, if you are getting a frame made to fit you, it'll be the best!
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • FransJacques
    FransJacques Posts: 2,148
    sungod wrote:
    then 6 months wait while guys in milan had an espresso between every measure, cut, weld and polish, then took all august on holiday to prepare themselves for the finale, came back, had a few more espressos, and one day i had a frame!
    Ha, you wrote that with a jaunty grin but you know that it wasn't far from the truth :-)
    When a cyclist has a disagreement with a car; it's not who's right, it's who's left.
  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    FransJacques wrote:
    sungod wrote:
    then 6 months wait while guys in milan had an espresso between every measure, cut, weld and polish, then took all august on holiday to prepare themselves for the finale, came back, had a few more espressos, and one day i had a frame!
    Ha, you wrote that with a jaunty grin but you know that it wasn't far from the truth :-)

    Who said he was exagerating? I should know........ :shock:
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • on-yer-bike
    on-yer-bike Posts: 2,974
    Here is a nice steel bike. Weighs a ton compared to my Cervelo R3-SL but lovely to ride and hand made in Italy. I have briefly ridden a litespeed and it didnt do much for me. I now want a Cinelli like the one above, please keep your pictures to yourself!

    IMG_0369.JPG
    Pegoretti
    Colnago
    Cervelo
    Campagnolo
  • BelgianBeerGeek
    BelgianBeerGeek Posts: 5,226
    That is one nice bike 8) . Steel is the real deal - my old Raleigh 531 frame is still a superb ride.
    Ecrasez l’infame
  • stevesavage71
    stevesavage71 Posts: 54
    Thanks for your info...Looks like everyone thinks steel is the deal. Strange I would have thought most would prefer titanium.
    I will probably go with the enigma extensor but does anyone know of any other xcr framed bikes to compare to?
    Also looking for a review online to try and understand the "Zingy" feel.
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 17,496
    stevesavage71 wrote:
    Thanks for your info...Looks like everyone thinks steel is the deal. Strange I would have thought most would prefer titanium.
    I will probably go with the enigma extensor but does anyone know of any other xcr framed bikes to compare to?
    Also looking for a review online to try and understand the "Zingy" feel.

    as far as ride goes, stiff but not harsh, it doesn't feel 'dead', zingy seems a fair description, and of course shiny

    aside from extensor, other xcr frames...

    cinelli xcr - this is what i've got

    pegoretti responsorium - remember how all the espresso meant i waited 6 months for cinelli? well, for a responsorium, dario and co. drink at least the same volume, but now it's ristretto

    firefly road - not sure about timing, i don't understand american coffee

    haven't heard of any others, but there will be a few speciailist frame makers who can build a frame with xcr

    but afaik the xcr tubeset is limited supply, so unless someone has stock it can be a long wait

    there are one or two other stainless steel tubesets, 953 for instance, even stronger than xcr, although i think it isn't seamless (xcr is)

    this reynolds pdf has a chart comparing various frame materials...

    http://reynoldstechnology.biz/assets/pd ... xtract.pdf

    ...it claims 953 outperforms their listed ti materials weight for weight
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • on-yer-bike
    on-yer-bike Posts: 2,974
    When I asked Rourke about an unpainted stainless frame they said they would only leave the back half the rear triangle unpainted because of all the welding marks, etc.
    Pegoretti
    Colnago
    Cervelo
    Campagnolo
  • inseine
    inseine Posts: 5,788
    there's no reason why it should weigh any more than a carbon framed bike.

    I'm sure there are lots of reasons to buy either but weight isn't one of them. I'm not saying it's a big deal but there's no way they weigh the same as carbon, £ for £.
    Some nice bikes in the photos BTW :)
    http://cyclinganddesign.blogspot.fr/
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    inseine wrote:
    I'm sure there are lots of reasons to buy either but weight isn't one of them. I'm not saying it's a big deal but there's no way they weigh the same as carbon, £ for £.
    Some nice bikes in the photos BTW :)

    There's 100 grams in it if that.
  • inseine
    inseine Posts: 5,788
    There's 100 grams in it if that

    I said £ for £, therefore, no.
    http://cyclinganddesign.blogspot.fr/
  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Apparently waiting list for a Pegoretti Responsorium is something like 2 years because of the limited supply of XCR tubing. I would also consider Marco Bertoletti (MB Bike) but you'd have to go direct to Italy.
    There's also a host of US builders such as Indy Fab and Waterford who'll build in stainless too. Depends a lot on how much you want to pay.
    'Zinginess' or more accurately modulus of elasticity is what makes steel feel unique. Tubes do need to be matched to weight and style of rider - what might feel 'zingy' to a 10 stone rider is going to feel 'whippy' and flexy to a 14 stone one
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • inseine
    inseine Posts: 5,788
    You don't seem to see many lugged steel bikes these days, are they not so fashionable or is it a weight thing?
    http://cyclinganddesign.blogspot.fr/
  • on-yer-bike
    on-yer-bike Posts: 2,974
    inseine wrote:
    There's 100 grams in it if that

    I said £ for £, therefore, no.

    Definitely much more than 100 g. My Cervelo R3-SL frame weighs about 860 g + fork. The Peg weighs twice that. If you want an ultralight bike don't buy steel. titanium may match the heavier carbons, Im not sure.
    Pegoretti
    Colnago
    Cervelo
    Campagnolo
  • antlaff
    antlaff Posts: 583
    stevesavage71 wrote:
    What is it with steel, that everyone likes?
    I'm really close to ordering the extensor.....but my head says titanium is a better material....by the way the cinelli...georgous!!

    I Got my Extensor 2 weeks ago and after sorting out my postioning problems (my error) have been in absolute love with it - it zooms up hills and cuts out road buzz. So much so, I was out on Sunday morning in 30mph winds and constant rain and didnt want to come home!!
    Work
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  • Herbsman
    Herbsman Posts: 2,029
    sungod wrote:
    i've got a cinelli xcr, it's lovely

    steel, mmm

    liita.jpg
    That looks sick. I love the headtube length too.
    CAPTAIN BUCKFAST'S CYCLING TIPS - GUARANTEED TO WORK! 1 OUT OF 10 RACING CYCLISTS AGREE!
  • w2darren
    w2darren Posts: 51
    try looking at Van Nicholas web site, they make beautiful ti bikes, well i am been a bit bias as i will be ordering a Tailor made Astraeus after the summer, cant wait. :l: :lol:
    good luck with your choice
  • w2darren
    w2darren Posts: 51
    try looking at Van Nicholas web site, they make beautiful ti bikes, well i am been a bit bias as i will be ordering a Tailor made Astraeus after the summer, cant wait. :l: :lol:
    good luck with your choice
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    on-yer-bike wrote:
    Definitely much more than 100 g. My Cervelo R3-SL frame weighs about 860 g + fork. The Peg weighs twice that. If you want an ultralight bike don't buy steel. titanium may match the heavier carbons, Im not sure.

    Way to go with a completely silly comparison.

    A 'standard' carbon frame weighs over 1KG. The Enigma Echo frame is 1250 grams and costs £1K. IMHO, it'll give a more comfortable ride than the R3SL as well. A steel frame in the same geometry will weigh 100 grams more than the Ti version. I know this because I asked Mark Reilly when I visited Enigma.

    If you really think 500 grams between the R3SL and the Enigma will make any difference at all then you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

    At then end of the day, you should buy what you like to ride the most, but don't get p*ssy about materials because it really doesn't make that much difference.
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    antlaff wrote:
    I Got my Extensor 2 weeks ago and after sorting out my postioning problems (my error) have been in absolute love with it - it zooms up hills and cuts out road buzz. So much so, I was out on Sunday morning in 30mph winds and constant rain and didnt want to come home!!

    To be fair, having spent 2 years in Armagh, that just about describes every day :cry:
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    inseine wrote:
    You don't seem to see many lugged steel bikes these days, are they not so fashionable or is it a weight thing?

    You can still get them, but it's a cost issue. Lugged frames take longer to create, so cost more, so you see fewer on the road. Shame really.

    http://www.enigmabikes.com/excellence.html
  • antlaff
    antlaff Posts: 583
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    antlaff wrote:
    I Got my Extensor 2 weeks ago and after sorting out my postioning problems (my error) have been in absolute love with it - it zooms up hills and cuts out road buzz. So much so, I was out on Sunday morning in 30mph winds and constant rain and didnt want to come home!!

    To be fair, having spent 2 years in Armagh, that just about describes every day :cry:

    haha Armagh is sheltered - I'm on the North Coast :lol::lol:
    Work
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    Sunny Days
    Fun
  • on-yer-bike
    on-yer-bike Posts: 2,974
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    on-yer-bike wrote:
    Definitely much more than 100 g. My Cervelo R3-SL frame weighs about 860 g + fork. The Peg weighs twice that. If you want an ultralight bike don't buy steel. titanium may match the heavier carbons, Im not sure.

    Way to go with a completely silly comparison.

    A 'standard' carbon frame weighs over 1KG. The Enigma Echo frame is 1250 grams and costs £1K. IMHO, it'll give a more comfortable ride than the R3SL as well. A steel frame in the same geometry will weigh 100 grams more than the Ti version. I know this because I asked Mark Reilly when I visited Enigma.

    If you really think 500 grams between the R3SL and the Enigma will make any difference at all then you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

    At then end of the day, you should buy what you like to ride the most, but don't get p*ssy about materials because it really doesn't make that much difference.

    Hold your horses. Somebody said the weight difference was only 100 g between carbon and steel and I dont think it is, even in your example its 350g (and a steel frame weighing only 1350g is very exceptional). I wasn't making any judgements as to which one is better or whether the extra weight matters.
    Pegoretti
    Colnago
    Cervelo
    Campagnolo
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    on-yer-bike wrote:
    Hold your horses. Somebody said the weight difference was only 100 g between carbon and steel and I dont think it is, even in your example its 350g (and a steel frame weighing only 1350g is very exceptional). I wasn't making any judgements as to which one is better or whether the extra weight matters.

    I said the difference was only 100 grams, but I was talking about Ti compared to carbon, not steel compared to carbon. I think there's been some confusion...

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