Andy Schleck: lacklustre?
Last two TDFs Contador and Andy Schleck have been clearly the best. Assuming that both are actually targetting the TDF this year as well, why is Contador currently and for a while now been riding as befits his prowess but Andy Schleck is not? Case in point with the latter being the TOC where Horner et al were able to drop him. You could argue Schleck will be tapering and peaking in due course, but shouldn't he better than he has been even now, just as Contador is?
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Contador probably expects a TdF issue which would stop him riding, so is in good shape for the Giro. AAMOF, it was suggested in Spain that he might do the Vuelta and skip the Tour because of the Giro.
Andy Schleck was in good shape for the hilly classics and now I guess he's in training mode, so not being brilliant in the AToC doesn't surprise me.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Two reasons:
1. Contador, currently, is better than Schleck. He's also a couple of years older.
2. They seem to have very different attitudes towards cycling. Contador seems to be more defined by cycling and wants to race as much as he can. Schleck on the other hand seems to be more of a regular guy, wanting to do regular guy things, who happens to be good at cycling and is only really interested for 5 weeks of the year.Twitter: @RichN950 -
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RichN95 wrote:iainf72 wrote:Andy Schleck was in good shape for the hilly classics and now I guess he's in training mode, so not being brilliant in the AToC doesn't surprise me.
By contrast, I was surprised at how good he was. Saxo Bank used to treat the ToC like a holiday (Haedo aside)
I'm surprised then at the extent to which his form could be different from that exhibited at the TDF given we are barely 5 weeks away from it (granted that many riders attain the last few percent of condition during the initial part of the TDF).
The comment about Contador potentially being a more natural racer was interesting...is it any wonder Schleck pays second fiddle even when he's at the absolute peak of his condition?0 -
Form should be pretty different. I'd guess Schleck went into the AToC after a heavy block of training so was probably tired. Where as for Horner / Levi this is a race they MUST do well in.
He needs to go into the Tour at about 95% and then hope to get the final 5 in the first week. Which is what everyone else should do.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Andy Schleck finished 24th in the tour of california last year with a deficit of 36.33 while he finished 8th this year.
As for distance to the tour, last year Contador reckoned he could improve his power about 10% in between the Dauphine and the tour.0 -
If Chris Horner beats Andy Schleck on GC or wins the tour @ 39 then i think a lot of us will give up cycling. Weve already been through one mockery we dont want another.0
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iainf72 wrote:Form should be pretty different. I'd guess Schleck went into the AToC after a heavy block of training so was probably tired. Where as for Horner / Levi this is a race they MUST do well in.
I know you hear everything. Surely you must have heard the rumours of Saxo (pre 2011) at the ToC being a stag do without a prospective groom.
I see this year's race as a big step up for Andy.Twitter: @RichN950 -
I remember Ullrich, one year, being a pork chop in the Giro one year and using the miles to burn of all those Bratwurst he consumed over the winter. He was still fat at the Tour de Suisse and then turned up at the Tour looking ripped, so we're still a little way off for good form or "going out on the razors edge" as Daniel Coyles book would say.
Armstrong used to be good at the Amstel Gold Race but was not as strong as he was at the Tour. It's always be nice for a big rider to get a victory or two by now to take the pressure off to confirm that good form is still there when needed.
-Jerry“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil0 -
jerry3571 wrote:I remember Ullrich, one year, being a pork chop in the Giro one year and using the miles to burn of all those Bratwurst he consumed over the winter. He was still fat at the Tour de Suisse and then turned up at the Tour looking ripped, so we're still a little way off for good form or "going out on the razors edge" as Daniel Coyles book would say.
Armstrong used to be good at the Amstel Gold Race but was not as strong as he was at the Tour. It's always be nice for a big rider to get a victory or two by now to take the pressure off to confirm that good form is still there when needed.
-Jerry
So, in summary, not all humans are identical.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Good question from the OP. Simply put, I would say Contador is a better racer than Andy hands down and will better him in any domain at any time of the year.
Contador is a champion, a natural born racer with a great passion for what he does, whereas Andy is lacking passion, motivation and effort.
I would say that you should compare Andy to the other Tour favourites - they are not so prominent either, albeit some definitely more than Andy.
The question of reasonable form throughout the entire year apart from an enormous boost in July can also be looked upon suspiciously although I don't think he is doping.
As an aside Contador this year:
Volta ao Algarve
where he came 2nd on Stage 3 (summit) and came 4th in the overall.
Vuelta a la Region de Murcia
where he won stage 2 (summit), won stage 3 (ITT) and took the GC overall
Volta a Catalunya
where he won stage 3 (summit) and took the GC overall
Vuelta a Castilla y Leon
where he won stage 4 (ITT)
Flèche Wallonne
where he came 11th
Giro
Dominance
Andy this year:
No wins
3rd LBL
2nd Stage 4 Cali, 8th overall
3rd Pais Vasco stage 2Contador is the Greatest0 -
Last year Andy was getting dropped on every ramp at toc and he was in great form during the tdf. This year he was actually in much better form during toc (which doesn't mean anything anyways).0
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Andy has a great chance of beating contador at the tdf (if AC rides). Schleck is way ahead of where he was this time last year and there's no chance whatsoever that contador will be in as good form for the tour as he is for the giro.0
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Frenchie, are you really so lacking in self awareness to keep this up?
There's no problem to my mind in being a fan of a certain rider, regardless of whether they have an endlessly postponed date with CAS.
Your problem is your pompousness. Proclaiming him as a 'true champion', with little regard to professional sport. Or any sport for that matter. I suspect you have never competed at sport at any proper level, so your idealistic views persist in your mind. You dismiss pro cyclists as wheelsuckers or lightweights for just doing the best they can. That's what pro sport is about. Doing your best, not entertaining the plebs. If you can, try and experience sport at a high level and see where your idealism gets you.
This wasn't meant to be personal. I like you on this forum. I just suspect that you may be young, idealistic and naive. But I'd advise you to turn down your attitude a bit, because you're in danger of becoming a forum joke.
And I see you have Hillary Swank as your avatar. If there was ever anyone who peaked occasionally it's her (two decent films, two Oscars)Twitter: @RichN950 -
I doubt Bertie rides in France this year.
Andy will not beat Basso.
I still can't believe that there is a pro tour team built around the Schleck brothers -- one can't move his chain and the other is always hitting the deck.0 -
Perhaps AS is in an "extraction phase"?0
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zammmmo wrote:The comment about Contador potentially being a more natural racer was interesting...is it any wonder Schleck pays second fiddle even when he's at the absolute peak of his condition?
Schleck is still a couple of years off his peak, Contador is already there. Without the chain slip last year Schleck might have won the TdF.0 -
RichN95 wrote:Frenchie, are you really so lacking in self awareness to keep this up?
There's no problem to my mind in being a fan of a certain rider, regardless of whether they have an endlessly postponed date with CAS.
Your problem is your pompousness. Proclaiming him as a 'true champion', with little regard to professional sport. Or any sport for that matter. I suspect you have never competed at sport at any proper level, so your idealistic views persist in your mind. You dismiss pro cyclists as wheelsuckers or lightweights for just doing the best they can. That's what pro sport is about. Doing your best, not entertaining the plebs. If you can, try and experience sport at a high level and see where your idealism gets you.
This wasn't meant to be personal. I like you on this forum. I just suspect that you may be young, idealistic and naive. But I'd advise you to turn down your attitude a bit, because you're in danger of becoming a forum joke.
And I see you have Hillary Swank as your avatar. If there was ever anyone who peaked occasionally it's her (two decent films, two Oscars)
I have competed but not at a high level by any means. I have neither the talent nor any desire whatsoever to be a sportsman of high level. I a young professional in a good situation with an overriding passion for road cycling; all of which suits me fine.
To be fair you go a little overboard. You will see that I certainly have turned stuff down and this 'true' part you take issue with I dont use anymore.
Contador is a champion (if not please explain why) so I am perfectly entitled to use this. He has huge passion for this sport (as many, many cyclists do) so I am perfectly entitled to say this.
You take exception to my comments to Andy I presume so I will address that. He is touted and considers himself to be the 2nd best stage racer in the world. Is it not right for me to judge him by that standard then and to compare him with the best? Please explain how Andy is poor all year (relative term given his supposed 2nd place in the world) apart from maybe a few days in the Ardennes and a month in July? I would suggest it is both because he is not as good as Contador by any means and also because he hasn't the attitude I admire. I would suggest also that there are riders you would not consider as good as Andy that are far better remunerated.
As you know I follow almost every race from one end of the season to the other and am quicker than a lot to congratulate riders. My comments are generally not disparaging towards a rider.
I may even say you are being idealistic in saying 'just doing the best they can'. I would suggest that this is not always the case for one and also that there are ways to do it and other ways to do it. Take Hoogerland for example - a rider who always does his best, yet is the opposite of a wheelsucker and defensive rider. Voeckler too. Both are greatly admired by fans and they do themselves more favours than not as sport I think is not just about results it is also commercial and 'hiding yourself' is not financially beneficial. Andy, does he do his best?
Without fans sport would crumble to nothing other than the purists, those with a passion for their sport which transcends the financial aspect. Fans are King - yes the sportsmen are here to make them interested as otherwise they wouldn't watch, so the sponsors would have no interest and therefore the riders would have little income.
With regard other sports, I cannot comment, I honestly only follow this one.Contador is the Greatest0 -
frenchfighter wrote:RichN95 wrote:Frenchie, are you really so lacking in self awareness to keep this up?
There's no problem to my mind in being a fan of a certain rider, regardless of whether they have an endlessly postponed date with CAS.
Your problem is your pompousness. Proclaiming him as a 'true champion', with little regard to professional sport. Or any sport for that matter. I suspect you have never competed at sport at any proper level, so your idealistic views persist in your mind. You dismiss pro cyclists as wheelsuckers or lightweights for just doing the best they can. That's what pro sport is about. Doing your best, not entertaining the plebs. If you can, try and experience sport at a high level and see where your idealism gets you.
This wasn't meant to be personal. I like you on this forum. I just suspect that you may be young, idealistic and naive. But I'd advise you to turn down your attitude a bit, because you're in danger of becoming a forum joke.
And I see you have Hillary Swank as your avatar. If there was ever anyone who peaked occasionally it's her (two decent films, two Oscars)
I have competed but not at a high level by any means. I have neither the talent nor any desire whatsoever to be a sportsman of high level. I a young professional in a good situation with an overriding passion for road cycling; all of which suits me fine.
To be fair you go a little overboard. You will see that I certainly have turned stuff down and this 'true' part you take issue with I dont use anymore.
Contador is a champion (if not please explain why) so I am perfectly entitled to use this. He has huge passion for this sport (as many, many cyclists do) so I am perfectly entitled to say this.
You take exception to my comments to Andy I presume so I will address that. He is touted and considers himself to be the 2nd best stage racer in the world. Is it not right for me to judge him by that standard then and to compare him with the best? Please explain how Andy is poor all year (relative term given his supposed 2nd place in the world) apart from maybe a few days in the Ardennes and a month in July? I would suggest it is both because he is not as good as Contador by any means and also because he hasn't the attitude I admire. I would suggest also that there are riders you would not consider as good as Andy that are far better remunerated.
As you know I follow almost every race from one end of the season to the other and am quicker than a lot to congratulate riders. My comments are generally not disparaging towards a rider.
I may even say you are being idealistic in saying 'just doing the best they can'. I would suggest that this is not always the case for one and also that there are ways to do it and other ways to do it. Take Hoogerland for example - a rider who always does his best, yet is the opposite of a wheelsucker and defensive rider. Voeckler too. Both are greatly admired by fans and they do themselves more favours than not as sport I think is not just about results it is also commercial and 'hiding yourself' is not financially beneficial. Andy, does he do his best?
Without fans sport would crumble to nothing other than the purists, those with a passion for their sport which transcends the financial aspect. Fans are King - yes the sportsmen are here to make them interested as otherwise they wouldn't watch, so the sponsors would have no interest and therefore the riders would have little income.
With regard other sports, I cannot comment, I honestly only follow this one.
I think the answer to that will be all too apparent in the next few weeks, when all the Spanish procrastination has been exhausted and the non Spanish authorities have their say. I've found this year's Giro very hard to watch as I feel that Contador should not be riding. I have also been extremely uncomfortable watching how easily Contador puts other strong contenders to the sword. The last grand tour that was so dominated by one rider like this one was the year Basso won the Giro in 'extraterrestial' fashion.
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RichN95 wrote:Frenchie, are you really so lacking in self awareness to keep this up?
There's no problem to my mind in being a fan of a certain rider, regardless of whether they have an endlessly postponed date with CAS.
Your problem is your pompousness. Proclaiming him as a 'true champion', with little regard to professional sport. Or any sport for that matter. I suspect you have never competed at sport at any proper level, so your idealistic views persist in your mind. You dismiss pro cyclists as wheelsuckers or lightweights for just doing the best they can. That's what pro sport is about. Doing your best, not entertaining the plebs. If you can, try and experience sport at a high level and see where your idealism gets you.
This wasn't meant to be personal. I like you on this forum. I just suspect that you may be young, idealistic and naive. But I'd advise you to turn down your attitude a bit, because you're in danger of becoming a forum joke.
And I see you have Hillary Swank as your avatar. If there was ever anyone who peaked occasionally it's her (two decent films, two Oscars)
I think it's time for your pills RichN95; you are starting to get a little direct here so can you run your next post past your keeper before pressing submit.
As your post to me saying that no 2 riders are alike seems a little simple in your thoughts.
If you have no idea and need spoon feeding then read a little more and do a little less typing.
As for your remarks to FF then he/she is happy with his/her lot so a little light fun is good but leave it at that as he/she is good enertainment and he/she is full of facts and figures which silence most people here. Just be careful on your put downs ok; I'm sure you're no "all seeing eye" here or even a Mr iainf72.
-Jerry“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil0 -
jerry3571 wrote:
I think it's time for your pills RichN95; you are starting to get a little direct here so can you run your next post past your keeper before pressing submit.
I'll freely admit that I wasn't entirely sober when I posted that. I genuinely like FF and don't mind him being a Contador fan. But he genuinely is a bit pompous at times and completely oblivious to the doping case at AC's door. I also dislike him slagging off riders for wheelsucking and not showing panache, when there's every chance that those riders are clean guys up against dopers.
As I have already said, I like FF. But he seems a little bit naive to me.Twitter: @RichN950 -
I didnt take it personally btw Rich. I like you too on this forum - your analysis is balanced and often turns out accurate and is informative.
I guess we can disagree a little on the points discussed above but that makes it more interesting.
Hey Jerry, keep up with those posts of yours : )Contador is the Greatest0 -
Good shape for the hilly classics?iainf72 wrote:Contador probably expects a TdF issue which would stop him riding, so is in good shape for the Giro. AAMOF, it was suggested in Spain that he might do the Vuelta and skip the Tour because of the Giro.
Andy Schleck was in good shape for the hilly classics and now I guess he's in training mode, so not being brilliant in the AToC doesn't surprise me.
Is that why he and his brother did not challenge Gilbert ?
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Clean guys against dopers? hmm right.RichN95 wrote:jerry3571 wrote:
I think it's time for your pills RichN95; you are starting to get a little direct here so can you run your next post past your keeper before pressing submit.
I'll freely admit that I wasn't entirely sober when I posted that. I genuinely like FF and don't mind him being a Contador fan. But he genuinely is a bit pompous at times and completely oblivious to the doping case at AC's door. I also dislike him slagging off riders for wheelsucking and not showing panache, when there's every chance that those riders are clean guys up against dopers.
As I have already said, I like FF. But he seems a little bit naive to me.
Who is to say the shreks are less likely to have doped than Alberto?
Fact is Alberto is without doubt one of the best and most attacking riders ever, you can't faulthis riding for sure.
Many say on here how good past riders were, like Kelly, Roach and many otehr of the eighties but how many of them were clean ?
Maybe Alberto did jooce up in earlier days but not so sure he did last year or this year.In fact he looks much better this year than last year.0 -
Both Shlecks are pristine, never failed a test, and both are the most tested athletes in the history of the world. Frank really did go to Fuentes for a training planoldwelshman wrote:Clean guys against dopers? hmm right.
Who is to say the shreks are less likely to have doped than Alberto?
Fact is Alberto is without doubt one of the best and most attacking riders ever, you can't faulthis riding for sure.
Many say on here how good past riders were, like Kelly, Roach and many otehr of the eighties but how many of them were clean ?
Maybe Alberto did jooce up in earlier days but not so sure he did last year or this year.In fact he looks much better this year than last year. But that's really got nothing to do with the point being made has it?
Incidentally Bertie tested +ive last year for a banned substance, and you offer his improved form this year as anecdotal evidence of new found cleanliness?
The other riders you mention doped, but pre 'blood doping' it really was a different ball game, still cheating, but not quite the same uneven playing field.0 -
oldwelshman wrote:
Clean guys against dopers? hmm right.RichN95 wrote:jerry3571 wrote:
I think it's time for your pills RichN95; you are starting to get a little direct here so can you run your next post past your keeper before pressing submit.
I'll freely admit that I wasn't entirely sober when I posted that. I genuinely like FF and don't mind him being a Contador fan. But he genuinely is a bit pompous at times and completely oblivious to the doping case at AC's door. I also dislike him slagging off riders for wheelsucking and not showing panache, when there's every chance that those riders are clean guys up against dopers.
As I have already said, I like FF. But he seems a little bit naive to me.
Who is to say the shreks are less likely to have doped than Alberto?
Fact is Alberto is without doubt one of the best and most attacking riders ever, you can't faulthis riding for sure.
Many say on here how good past riders were, like Kelly, Roach and many otehr of the eighties but how many of them were clean ?
Maybe Alberto did jooce up in earlier days but not so sure he did last year or this year.In fact he looks much better this year than last year.
I find it hard to believe the Schlecks are clean as I hope they are- firstly climbs that blew other riders away, and Schleck and Contedor last year were virtually playing cat and mouse track standing on the way up, and nothing to say of the fact that if I was second on a grand tour beaten by someone who tested positive, I'd be going bloody mental- has AS even commented?0 -
I think Bertie just goes and rides 'cos he can while Schleck Minor makes plans - always a mistake 'cos life has a way of kicking you in the teeth when you least expect it. 8)'Google can bring back a hundred thousand answers. A librarian can bring you back the right one.'
Neil Gaiman0 -
The ToC is about as good a form indicator for the Tour as the Tour of Qatar is for Paris-Roubaix.0
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dougzz wrote:
Both Shlecks are pristine, never failed a test, and both are the most tested athletes in the history of the world. Frank really did go to Fuentes for a training planoldwelshman wrote:Clean guys against dopers? hmm right.
Who is to say the shreks are less likely to have doped than Alberto?
Fact is Alberto is without doubt one of the best and most attacking riders ever, you can't faulthis riding for sure.
Many say on here how good past riders were, like Kelly, Roach and many otehr of the eighties but how many of them were clean ?
Maybe Alberto did jooce up in earlier days but not so sure he did last year or this year.In fact he looks much better this year than last year. But that's really got nothing to do with the point being made has it?
Incidentally Bertie tested +ive last year for a banned substance, and you offer his improved form this year as anecdotal evidence of new found cleanliness?
The other riders you mention doped, but pre 'blood doping' it really was a different ball game, still cheating, but not quite the same uneven playing field.
Hmm where did I say his new found form is a result of his new found cleanliness?
All I said was that if he is clean now,which I blieve he is,how come he is going better than last year when he "allegedly" doped.
I do not believe he was clean when he was with discovery but I believe he is now, but I do enjoy his riding, he is the most entertaining rider, well one of.
As for last year with the amount found being so miniscule I do not actually believe he doped but thats my own view.0
