Enigma Extensor

rolf_f

markos1963 wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Bit weird those Pegorettis aren't they - they've already got 3cm of head tube sticking out above the top tube already before you even get to the spacers.

As I understand it Pegoretti reckon that it's better to have the head tube extended above the top tube than to have spacers. It's supposed to be much stronger and provides better front end control.

So what do they reckon to having the head tube extended above the top tune and to have spacers as per the bikes in the links? If they have designed their bikes with that in mind, they shouldn't need to be producing them with a load of spacers.

Besides, why would one be the alternative to another. Why not just run the top tube to the top of the head tube? Aside from slight adjustability, why would you have any spacers at all if the bike was bespoke?

markos1963

I think people get worried that they might need to change position from time to time and leave the spacers in. At the end of the day it's only the fork so if it was wrong you could change it. If it was me I'd spend plenty of time getting to fit right and then cut it flush, it looks far prettier imo(even though i have a stack on my bike due to it being multi purpose, tt,race etc)

Ben6899

That's a beautiful frame.

Just a comment on steerer spacers... I run my Felt with no spacers (as that's how it's comfy) and the difference in feel at the front is considerable.

Evil Laugh

A guy I know has an extensor and he has the same config with the spacers. I've not asked him about it as he's very much n love with the bike. Did find it odd though.

I feel that if your fit is compromised even with 30mm odd of spacers (drops are no good, you say) on a frame they measured and fitted you for, that you should go back to them.

I have a bike built by Mark that is one of the nicest I've ridden and an extensor or excellence is next on the list for both me and the missus but think this is a bit bad. It's not a small amount of money you've just paid for this lovely bike, the fit should be perfect.

nferrar

It's certainly a nice bike and whilst I'd agree for a custom bike it does seem to have a bunch of spacers/post I don't think it leaps out as odd looking for it. Seems a big drop from saddle to bars though which I'd think would contribute more to the drops not being comfy (rather than reach).

giant_man

Don't worry about the fools who worry about the stack spacer height. If it fits you and feels good, then that's all that matters. There's obviously a reason why Mark/Jim measured you this way.

It is what it is. I've been on an Extensor and I know what a fantastic frame this is. Enjoy!

antlaff

giant mancp wrote:

Don't worry about the fools who worry about the stack spacer height. If it fits you and feels good, then that's all that matters. There's obviously a reason why Mark/Jim measured you this way.

It is what it is. I've been on an Extensor and I know what a fantastic frame this is. Enjoy!

Thanks - I have just an issue when on the drops - just too much of a reach and putting pressure on my shoulders - just waiting on Mark to comeback.

bondurant

Please let us know what he says? I'm intrigued by this thread!

Evil Laugh

Giant, are you honestly saying that a custom frame where you can't comfortably reach the drops even with a stack of spacers is a good design?

Nobody's saying it's a crap bike, far from it, even the op himself is saying it doesn't fit.

antlaff

Evil Laugh wrote:

Giant, are you honestly saying that a custom frame where you can't comfortably reach the drops even with a stack of spacers is a good design?

Nobody's saying it's a crap bike, far from it, even the op himself is saying it doesn't fit.

i didnt say it didnt fit - i haved been advised to drop the seat slightly and rotate the bars - will try later this evening but with 50mph winds here at the moment a test run looks unlikely.

EKIMIKE

Rolf F wrote:

So what do they reckon to having the head tube extended above the top tune and to have spacers as per the bikes in the links? If they have designed their bikes with that in mind, they shouldn't need to be producing them with a load of spacers.

Besides, why would one be the alternative to another. Why not just run the top tube to the top of the head tube? Aside from slight adjustability, why would you have any spacers at all if the bike was bespoke?

If there are spacers on custom builds then it is invariably due to customer preference. On all of the Peg's linked with extended head-tubes + spacers, the owners could equally have no spacers but a positive angle stem. That is the conventional wisdom if you want a the stiffest set-up with high handlebars.

Pegoretti could build these bikes without spacers, without extended head-tubes and without positive angle stems but you'd need a sloping top-tube. He simply doesn't do sloping top tubes. If a customer wants a Peg but above all needs a sloping top tube then he's buying the wrong bike. Like i said, this is what happens when MAMIL (ok, fat young people too) buy expensive bikes They're too inflexible/fat (delete as appropriate) to ride a bike that is built with a normal geometry. They should've bought a Spec Roubaix or similar.

I guess you could say "well why doesn't Pegoretti just build them a sloping t-t bike?", which is an entirely legit. question. But then it wouldn't be a Pegoretti

amaferanga

antlaff wrote:

Evil Laugh wrote:

Giant, are you honestly saying that a custom frame where you can't comfortably reach the drops even with a stack of spacers is a good design?

Nobody's saying it's a crap bike, far from it, even the op himself is saying it doesn't fit.

i didnt say it didnt fit - i haved been advised to drop the seat slightly and rotate the bars - will try later this evening but with 50mph winds here at the moment a test run looks unlikely.

I don't think you should be setting your seat height based on the reach to the drops. It does look like rotating them will help though (but then you might find you need to move the levers further up the bars - should have been sorted out properly before the bars were wrapped). Failing that you might need to get some shallow drop and/or reach drops.

You said earlier that you moved your seat forward to get a more comfortable position on the bars - again the seat position should be set relative to your BB, not the bars.

This sounds like possibly the worst ever custom bike build. It should be perfect, but it looks all wrong.

EKIMIKE

antlaff wrote:

Evil Laugh wrote:

Giant, are you honestly saying that a custom frame where you can't comfortably reach the drops even with a stack of spacers is a good design?

Nobody's saying it's a crap bike, far from it, even the op himself is saying it doesn't fit.

i didnt say it didnt fit - i haved been advised to drop the seat slightly and rotate the bars - will try later this evening but with 50mph winds here at the moment a test run looks unlikely.

Ok they're taking the piss now. DO NOT drop your saddle if it is at the optimum height where it is currently. The only reason you should ever drop your saddle is if it is too high in respect of your inseam. Dropping your saddle for any other reason is plainly wrong, and is a one way street to knee pain.

IMO the solution here is bars with a less deep drop. There are plenty on the market.

Riding on the drops encompasses an an extra degree of flexibility (based on the assumption that we intend to ride on the hoods 95% of the time(and the position of the hoods is at an optimum of not too low but not too high)). As a Human you have range of flexibility that is unique to you. If riding on the drops is uncomfortable then it's likely to be that the bars exceed your range of flexibility as opposed to your frame. Bar manufacturers make compact drop bars to cater for your unique flexibility range as best possible. Compact bars aren't a compromise, they're simply part of a better (wider) range of fitting solutions available.

antlaff

EKIMIKE wrote:

antlaff wrote:

Evil Laugh wrote:

Giant, are you honestly saying that a custom frame where you can't comfortably reach the drops even with a stack of spacers is a good design?

Nobody's saying it's a crap bike, far from it, even the op himself is saying it doesn't fit.

i didnt say it didnt fit - i haved been advised to drop the seat slightly and rotate the bars - will try later this evening but with 50mph winds here at the moment a test run looks unlikely.

Ok they're taking the wee-wee now. DO NOT drop your saddle if it is at the optimum height where it is currently. The only reason you should ever drop your saddle is if it is too high in respect of your inseam. Dropping your saddle for any other reason is plainly wrong, and is a one way street to knee pain.

IMO the solution here is bars with a less deep drop. There are plenty on the market.

Riding on the drops encompasses an an extra degree of flexibility (based on the assumption that we intend to ride on the hoods 95% of the time(and the position of the hoods is at an optimum of not too low but not too high)). As a Human you have range of flexibility that is unique to you. If riding on the drops is uncomfortable then it's likely to be that the bars exceed your range of flexibility as opposed to your frame. Bar manufacturers make compact drop bars to cater for your unique flexibility range as best possible. Compact bars aren't a compromise, they're simply part of a better (wider) range of fitting solutions available.

Hi - thanks for the help - i accept what people are saying re the spacers etc but i think with a small bit of tinkering i can get it perfect - the seat height is at 765 from the BB which i believe should be 740 for a 32" inseam( i have had issue with my achilles which could be me over streching).
I have been riding a compact bar for the last 2.5yrs so it maybe just me needing to readjust to the new shape - the enigma bar was only £45 and was always an intended future upgrade.

bondurant

Antlaff

Don't know what method you are using to calculate your BB to seat height. But, for instance, Lemond method would have your seat height at under 72cm for a 32 inch inseam.

I know nothing about what is good or bad about the various methods - just to point out that your 76.5cm / 74cm estimates are very different.

Maybe bike fit time?

EKIMIKE

Saddle height is too subjective (e.g. some people prefer to pedal toe down so will have a higher seat than those who pedal with a level foot). Maybe use a particular method as a guide. But it is only a guide. It might be right for you by co-incidence but always try above and below. It's trial and error.

Go find a quiet stretch of road, take an allen key and a tape measure. Try out different heights. Find the one that feels best and try it. Repeat until you find the best. Most importantly, experiment to the millimetre - it might make the difference even if it seems ridiculous. Good Luck.

flasher

Were you not measured?

Surely the whole point of having a custom built bike is to take to guess work out of saddle height/reach etc........or am I wrong?

antlaff

Thanks to EKIMIKE, Bondurant and Napd - all now sorted. Corrected the seat height rotated the bar and yes the reach is perfect - feel such a tit, but when I looked at the height settings Enigma had supplied me( ileft these at work) it feels 200% better.
Its a pity i left it at work!! Had I taken it home before the weekend I wouldnt havent caused a stir and giving Enigma a bad name.!!

ope the pic below meets approval !!(except of course the spacers)


IMG_2298 by Antlaff, on Flickr

Anonymous

Daddy pig has fallen over with delight.

TMR

That stem is huge, as is the drop on the bars. Try your new position, but if it doesn't work then don't be scared to try a shorter stem or compact bars with a more shallow drop.

I've just bought some 3T Ergonova Pro bars today - less than 8cm reach and 12.5cm drop or so. They cost £60 which isn't a huge amount.

If you do try a shorter stem, just buy a cheap one in the right length, you can always get a flash one when you've made sure it's right.

I'll second the suggestion made regarding a bike fit. Get one, best money you'll ever spend.

antlaff

NapoleonD wrote:

Daddy pig has fallen over with delight.

Haha daddy and peppa pig are very happy its sorted!!

antlaff

The Mad Rapper wrote:

That stem is huge, as is the drop on the bars. Try your new position, but if it doesn't work then don't be scared to try a shorter stem or compact bars with a more shallow drop.

I've just bought some 3T Ergonova Pro bars today - less than 8cm reach and 12.5cm drop or so. They cost £60 which isn't a huge amount.

If you do try a shorter stem, just buy a cheap one in the right length, you can always get a flash one when you've made sure it's right.

I'll second the suggestion made regarding a bike fit. Get one, best money you'll ever spend.

Yeah point taken - Mark at enigma will swap the stem no prob but from his measurements thought I had longer than normal limbs. It does feel comfortable but I only got going around the block due to the wind and rain here on the north coast!
The bars will be upgraded at a later stage once the bank balance looks a bit better and the wife has calmed a bit!!

antlaff

antlaff wrote:

NapoleonD wrote:

Daddy pig has fallen over with delight.

Haha daddy and peppa pig are very happy its sorted!!

Wife now given off I took a pic this way with the kitchen a mess!!

StanwaySteve62

So what was the build cost?
Ps your bars still look a bit till tilted downwards( to me) I say that as when i was messing with my setup I tried to put the hoods a bit lower by tilting the bars and found a small amount down made ME uncomfortable . Try them parallel and see how it feels
All IMHO

antlaff

StanwaySteve62 wrote:

So what was the build cost?
Ps your bars still look a bit till tilted downwards( to me) I say that as when i was messing with my setup I tried to put the hoods a bit lower by tilting the bars and found a small amount down made ME uncomfortable . Try them parallel and see how it feels
All IMHO

I have moved them back up a fraction since this pic has taken. It amazing how much mm's can affect the feel!!

Price wise the full rrp on the website is 4070. Jim gave me a great deal and I'm also putting the whole bike thru our company's own cycle scheme so will end up only paying 2100 approx!

Anonymous

Personally I'd try some compact bars, either 3T or Deda RHM.

Not just the drops that suit me better but reach too. Try some mega cheap ones first...

StanwaySteve62

Yep, for me dead parallel was right. I noticed any changes here far more noticeable than any other adjustment.
Seat setback seems to be the biggest black art even after reading much about it

antlaff

Would you have an idea how much a lbs would charge to swap bars ? My level of tinkering might mess it up.

Anonymous

It's simply a case of undoing some screws! It takes 5 mins, plus 10 mins for bar tape once happy...

rolf_f

EKIMIKE wrote:

Pegoretti could build these bikes without spacers, without extended head-tubes and without positive angle stems but you'd need a sloping top-tube. He simply doesn't do sloping top tubes. If a customer wants a Peg but above all needs a sloping top tube then he's buying the wrong bike.

That makes mostly a lot of sense except...... surely they could have the horizontal top tube and no extended head tube by having a taller seat tube?

I can sort of see where they are coming from but to me it just makes a potentially reasonable looking bike look slightly wrong!