Lesson learned - LBS won't be getting my business again...

julianhj

I could be wrong. He might have had a perfectly valid point, but the way it was made means that I won't be returning to my (not quite closest) LBS.

I bought a Cube Ltd Race six months ago after a 15 year hiatus from two wheels. I went to my LBS, but they no longer stocked Cube, so I went to the nearest shop that did, having decided that was what I wanted. The sales process wasn't exactly a dream, but I was happy enough.

I've been slack over the winter, a for a whole bunch of reasons (excuses) I didn't go out cycling as planned. With summer on the horizon, and my waistline still a few inches over what it should be, I resolved to get out on the bike at least once or twice a week.

I gave the bike a quick check over last weekend, intending to ease myself back in to things. There was a problem though - the front brake pads were rubbing on the disc. Just a little, but I knew it needed sorting. I looked in the manual, and couldn't see and info on adjustments. I Googled the brakes (Formula RX) - no luck. Well, I was considering some cycling shoes, SPDs, Camelbak... I thought I'd pop down to the shop, ask their opinion and maybe treat myself to some new bits...

On arrival, I wonder in and am greeted by the owner. I confess to my laziness over the last few months, and ask for advice on tweaking the front brake. His reply? 'I'm not going to tell you. I've built up (xx) years experience, and if I told you I'd be losing money. I can service the front brake for (a few) quid.' He went on to add 'There's also a risk that if I tell you how to do it, and you do it wrong, you could injure yourself and sue me'.

Granted the bloke has a business to run. However, after spending £1040 with him, am I unreasonable asking for a hint on sorting a minor teething issue?

I couldn't be bother to argue the toss, so I got the bike out of the car and left it with him. He said it would take an hour, then half an hour. I certainly had no intention of browsing, so I went for a walk. Half an hour later and a few quid lighter, I left - the problem seemed to be sorted.

I'd driven my bike to the shop and back (it's not that local), meaning the front wheel had to come off for the journey. I had my suspicions that front wheel position what critical to correct setup, but I was really suprised when on putting the wheel back on, the brake pads were massively out if line. No amount of fiddling seemed to sort it. Damn.

I'd been reluctant throughout to start fiddling myself, never having owned/adjusted disc brakes before, but 'needs must' I thought.

A good look at the set-up, five minutes with some allen keys and job done. Perfect. All it needed was adjustment of the mounting.

I feel a bit of a mug (and fully expect to get called that!) but I learnt a valuable lesson. Modern components aren't all that scary to adjust (not that I'd start mucking around with the forks, for example without a clear idea that I knew roughly what I was going to do), and a bit of common sense can sort out things someone wants to charge me good money for.

I won't name and shame, but I certainly won't be setting foot in a certain LBS ever again. For the sake of 'Just adjust the caliper on the mounting posts' The owner would have got repeat business and recommendations from me (I'd previously recommended him to my boss, who was after a new bike). Poor customer service, or fair play?

timpop

He sounds as if he was being a bit lame but I wouldn't worry too much about that.
The lesson you learned is how to adjust your callipers. Disc brakes are not that complicated as you now know. When you took the wheel off again you may have toughed the brake levers which may have put the pads out.
Anyways, if you get stuck again have a look on the Park Tools website. It has a lot of useful ‘how to’ videos.
Have fun riding this summer. No excuses!

The Northern Monkey

Are you serious?

An essay because you couldn't adjust a brake caliper?

thisischris

Poor customer service I think.

My LBS relies on return business to make a profit. I pay a premium to shop there but get excellent advice and customer service in return. Works for me!

On the other hand bike shops do get loads of people going in for advice and they dont always end up buying anything so this guy has probably just got wound up about this sort of thing.

cat_with_no_tail

To be fair, he wouldn't know it was just the caliper that needed re-aligning just from you telling him. It could be a warped rotor, sticky/siezed pistons, pads marginally too thick, too much fluid/air in the lines etc.

Ok, I know it's no excuse for rudeness, but still, he does have a point.

When you went to pick it up, did he actually tell you what was wrong with it?

Also, did you try it out in the shop to make sure it was fixed before you whipped off the wheel to put it back in the car?

Next time, you'll know, just come and ask on here in the workshop section (make sure to read the sticky first though).

cooldad

Boo Hoo?

jairaj

Im my opinion this was a setup issue. I think bike shops should always tell their customers how to setup the bike so it performs at its best.

Obviously if something needs fitting or fixing because its broken then I would not expect them to teach me the process.

rhext

I guess you could say he won the battle but lost the war....

...I suppose in principle he's correct, but if he's not going to see any more of your business, he might be right but he's also poorer!

julianhj

jairaj wrote:

Im my opinion this was a setup issue. I think bike shops should always tell their customers how to setup the bike so it performs at its best.

Obviously if something needs fitting or fixing because its broken then I would not expect them to teach me the process.

I had guessed that it was a setup issue, hence my annoyance at his flat refusal to give any advice.

supersonic

Tbh I think I'd have charged you too. Bikes require servicing from time to time - if you are unable to do it yourself then a pro will charge you. If you were unhappy with the work, take it up with him.

Thewaylander

supersonic wrote:

Tbh I think I'd have charged you too. Bikes require servicing from time to time - if you are unable to do it yourself then a pro will charge you. If you were unhappy with the work, take it up with him.

Im with sonic here, Bike servicing is bread and butter money to bike shops, and you jsut asked him to give you all the things so he can't earn his basic monies.

I mean i'm a big of doing things myself but the information is out there no need, to go tease a poor bike shop owner with the fact your not gonna pay him

julianhj

I understand your point about servicing, and I will still take my bike to an LBS for a service (forks particularly, brakes probably, and over the course of the bike's life there will be plenty of stuff I don't have the tools/time/knowledge for) - however this was a question about setup. The bike had seen very, very little use, I'd bought it from him a few months before (I told him this before my enquiry) - I was after a bit of aftersales care. He saw it as me asking for something for nothing, and made a bit of a song and dance of it. What's the point of using an LBS if they're unwilling to provide any aftersales service? I might as well just go online for my next purchase and save myself a few quid.

supersonic

Most bike shops will readjust the bike within 6 weeks of you buying it as parts do bed in. When I sold bikes I was happy to tweak them for a couple of months until all was good. If parts were faulty then the service was free of course. Parts that need readjusting are not faulty.

But there comes a point where you have to start charging. Bikes still require periodic adjustment and maintenance, is part and parcel of owning a bike and your warranty can be invalidated if you do not do so (worst case example). Personally I made this clear to the customer, and would offer reduced rates if they required servicing outside that initial window. We can't provide servicing forever for free! I also made sure they had all the correct manuals and resources should they wish to have a go themselves. Maybe the owner could have pointed you in the right direction.

But I guess his reason for charging, and would be mine, is the time scale involved rather than how many times you rode it. Would you expect the same after 12 months, 2 years?

On the face of it his communication could be better and possibly attitude, but to offer to relalign a brake practically on the spot for a few quid sounds to me pretty reasonable!

MrChuck

I totally agree about LBSs needing to cost their time and expertise- there are plenty of threads with people moaning because they haven't had some little thing done for free which I think are pretty out of order.

That said sometimes a bit of goodwill goes a long way (on both sides) and in this case I think the owner called it wrong. The OP bought the bike from him and just wanted a bit of advice, I don't think that was too much to ask. I can see how you'd get wound up if you get too many people wanting their little problems looked at and not enough people prepared to put their hands in their pockets, but I think he was a bit out of line there.

.blitz

Would never expect the lbs to do something for nothing no matter how trivial they are not a charity and I respect that

We do however have an understanding which means automatic 10% discount and matching the prices on their often cheaper website.

I feel better when I think I've got a bargain and they have a regular customer. Works both ways.

nozzac

If I'm in my LBS and mention anything about brakes or gears being a little off, and they're not overly busy, they just pull out a tool and do it right there without even being asked. I don't expect them to do it, but they do. What takes me 1/2 an hour takes them 10 seconds.

I've gone down there specifically to pay to get them sorted and this has happened. This is the case even though I didn't buy my last bike there. Needless to say I end up spending money on lube or whatever because I feel a sense of quid pro quo.

I run my own computer business and I do get the odd freeloader call me up. They have a problem they cannot sort out and blatently ask me how to do it. I just say "it's hard to say what the problem is over the phone. If you'd like me to come out and take a look I'm available next week". These people annoy me because they're treating me like a free service. However if a customer who has previously spent money with me and been calls up to arrange a booking for something I know will take seconds then I'll happily tell them how to sort it themselves. The difference is one is trying to get something for free despite having no relationship with me, the other is someone with whom I have a relationship and deserves a good turn that costs me nothing.

rhext

NozzaC wrote:

If I'm in my LBS and mention anything about brakes or gears being a little off, and they're not overly busy, they just pull out a tool and do it right there without even being asked. I don't expect them to do it, but they do. What takes me 1/2 an hour takes them 10 seconds.

I've gone down there specifically to pay to get them sorted and this has happened. This is the case even though I didn't buy my last bike there. Needless to say I end up spending money on lube or whatever because I feel a sense of quid pro quo.

I run my own computer business and I do get the odd freeloader call me up. They have a problem they cannot sort out and blatently ask me how to do it. I just say "it's hard to say what the problem is over the phone. If you'd like me to come out and take a look I'm available next week". These people annoy me because they're treating me like a free service. However if a customer who has previously spent money with me and been calls up to arrange a booking for something I know will take seconds then I'll happily tell them how to sort it themselves. The difference is one is trying to get something for free despite having no relationship with me, the other is someone with whom I have a relationship and deserves a good turn that costs me nothing.

+1. I was on my way to work when the bolt holding my saddle to the seatpost sheared. I stopped in at the LBS, he spent 10 minutes rooting through his spares box for a new bolt, which he sold me for 50p and then fitted it for free. Despite having every opportunity to sell me a new seatpost (I was desparate enough to hint I'd be up for that since he was clearly struggling to find the spare). He's also happy to offer good advice. Not only did I buy a new light which I didn't really need while I was there, no prizes for guessing who gets all the jobs I don't want to tackle myself!

bails87

If the LBS owner hadn't said "I know how to do it, but I'm not telling you" then there wouldn't have been an issue. He could have, honestly, said "It could be a number of things, bring it in, I should have it done in half an hour unless it's serious". And then you'd have been happy that he'd diagnosed and solved the problem in half an hour for a few quid.

It does seem unhelpful, but then he's there to make a living.

WelshLoon

Best not to use him again, sounds a bit arrogant for my liking.

Between now and the next time your bike goes wrong i would do some online researching on how to fix the most frequent problems yourself, brake adjustments, bleeding etc, wheel truing, adjusting wheel bearings, etc etc etc.

Most things are quite easy once youve done them a couple of times.

Saying that, a lot of bike shops once you befriend them have no problem sorting very minor probs for free also.

blablablacksheep

Honestly anybike shop that talks about" if i tell you how its done id lose business ect ect" is just a waste of space.

Most proper LBSs will be friendly and have a good customer service /repor with focus on being able to walk in and talk about the problem/bike without being "set-up for a costly repair/work"

I know plenty of car shops that i have used where i can go and if i having a issue they will tell me what they think is wrong and what probably needs doing.

If a LBS isnt going to give advise or help just let them go under tbh, with the world as it is money wise, if they cant be "asked" to help or be friendly, then i surely myself cant be "asked" to give them my cash.

harsh maybe but too many local businesses have survived for too long with bad customer services. 8)

Raymondavalon

The Northern Monkey wrote:

Are you serious?

An essay because you couldn't adjust a brake caliper?

+ potato..

That symptom could have resolved by doing a search in the Tech Tips Forum.

MountainMonster

I have a slight feeling some of the story is made up. Mainly the part of I have x years of experience why should I help you or whatever.

Any chance you were being pushy about getting something done for free? If so, that could have caused his change of attitude. I know if someone comes to me asking for free work, and is extremely pushy, and feels "entitled" to it, I would be on edge as well. You never know how those type of altercations can work out.

hyperman

Does anyone posting in this thread work in an industry where customer service is required? Because that is quite clearly poor customer service....all he had to say was that he couldn't really advise as it could be a number of things and that for a small fee he would have been happy to fix the bike..due to his arrogance he's now lost a customer and rightly so imo..

julianhj

MountainMonster wrote:

I have a slight feeling some of the story is made up. Mainly the part of I have x years of experience why should I help you or whatever.

Any chance you were being pushy about getting something done for free? If so, that could have caused his change of attitude. I know if someone comes to me asking for free work, and is extremely pushy, and feels "entitled" to it, I would be on edge as well. You never know how those type of altercations can work out.

Ha ha! No, it's all true. What would I have to gain by fabricating any of it? I'm after genuine opinions of the situation - any fabrication would make the original post pointless (granted, some people think it's pointless anyway).

supersonic

Let's not have a go at the OP - we all have our POV. Mine is more from the side of the bike retailer as I have been in that position many times.

bobingtonsmyth

It's a hard one to call tbh. I agree that the owner has to make his money but there is also customer goodwill as you can't afford to alienate people who could turn out to be a longterm stream of revenue.

I guess it's ultimately about your relationship with the staff at your LBS, I'm lucky in that I'm a regular at my LBS. The owner knows I do pretty much all my own maintenance so when I chat to him about servicing issues he gives his advice freely, he knows that I'm good for buying all my consumables and other bits and bobs from him so he doesn't feel he's losing out.

That said if I was a first time customer or even very infrequent I wouldn't expect a similar level of openess. I'd still ask (always ask, never hurts) and ultimately this is important NEVER ask for step by step instructions how to do something as that is taking the absolute mick (in that case I'd tell the customer to go and shell out for the same training that staff at the LBS go through, politely of course), I generally phrase along the lines of 'I'm going to be servicing the brakes/whatever, what should I look out for'

What does rile me in this instance is the LBS owners apparent point blank of 'can't tell you, you might sue me if it goes wrong'. Smacks of pulling excuses from the air in order to get business, especially when it seems like it was a simple fix (Obviously I am only going from Julians account here). Even my LBS would have a good look first before diagnosing and telling me a 'service' was required (Julian did mention that the bike was still in the car when the Owner told him he'd have to service them, now that's really bad in my humble opinion)

BobbyTrigger

first set of spud's i bought (from Merlin online), couldn't get my pedals off to put them on. So i rode down to my LBS with them to buy a pedal spanner.

bloke in the shop asked me is that all its for? save your money i'll do it now for nowt.

now thats cracking service. especially when the spud's weren't even bought from him.

as a thank you i bought a couple of tins of muc off etc. didn't need them but the guy was worthy of a thank you.

you can argue that swapping pedals is a quicker job than fettling with calipers, fair enough. but its cracking customer service that goes a long way.

Shotsaway

Unfortunately LBS's are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Technology has changed the way we shop in the 21st century and we all want to pay as little as possible. We all order from the likes of CRC or we expect the LBS's to price match. Unfortunately that's just progress. LBS's have to make a living and servicing is one way that they can make some money (just like the motor industry, who make very little on new car sales and reley on servicing).

Each LBS needs to decide on how they will operate their on business. Some will refuse advice and some may provide the advice in hope that you mess it up and then need to use them to remedy the fault.

My "favourite" LBS go above and beyond by offering great service. A couple of months ago, I needed to replace my cassette (yep you've guessed, I ordered it from CRC). However my old cassette was seized on. Whilst trying to remove it, I snapped my chain whip. So off I went to my local LBS. They took the wheel into the workshop and 10 minutes later the cassette was off. I fully expected to pay and when I asked what the damage was, I was told nothing. Great service and I felt a little guilty as I got their time FOC! Anyway, I still needed a new chain whip and I purchased a Park Tools one from them before I left. I went home and fitted the new cassette.

So they gave me 10 minutes FOC but they still got a small sale out of me.

This is one of the reasons why they are my favourite LBS!

d00m

Definite tosser. Did he even explain what work was carried out? This kind of poor service and attitude really riles me up when having work done on my car.

Gives you a very good reason to start working on it yourself. No bicycle jobs are outside the scope of a diy mechanic with the right tools and half a brain. I mean, its not exactly a motorbike with lots of critical tolerances and minute synchronised workings... all you need is the knowledge, so buy a book or browse google

mtb crazy

they dont sound helpful at all, like blablablacksheep has said about them saying they would lose business. i think thats a load of rubbish really as theres still lots of people that need help with maintenence and even if they learn basic maintenance would still need to get it looked at by someone who has the experience to service it properly.

If they are rude, i would be tempted to go elsewhere.

supersonic

It's great when they can afford to give their time for free - but many can't, and are going out of business. Of course the argument could be that if they were better with customers they would get more custom, but is a downward spiral for some.

We used to get a lot of people expecting free work - many just randomers walking in and asking to blow their tyres up, fit a part they had bought elsewhere or adjust something because it 'only takes two mins' then getting arsey when we say it needs booking in or give them the price list.

I think most shops like to build up rapport with customers, but the respect has to work both ways. As someone said earlier, don't just walk in and assume you will get free advice and free work.