Boxing fans

DonDaddyD

OK, this, I hope is a safe subject...

Anyway, I'm watching Tyson on More 4 and I got to thinking, who do you reckon is the greatest boxer of them all? What was the best fight you ever saw?

For me - in my lifetime - it has to be MikeTyson.

Or just for the sake, raise your hand if your boxing fan! If you don't like it, why not?

bigmat

Love boxing. Tyson definitely not the best.

greg66_tri_v2.0

It's a short list.

Ali.

And there's the end of the list.

tailwindhome

No expert here, but they don't call him The Greatest no reason.

DonDaddyD

BigMat wrote:

Love boxing. Tyson definitely not the best.

So who do you think is?

It's a short list.

Ali.

And there's the end of the list.

I understand that that is the generally accepted answer and watching Ali, especially early Ali, he was hugely impressive. But I grew up on the Tyson fear factor.

I feel a little dirty saying I think Tyson was the greatest. In fact I think if the two at their peaks were to ever had met in the ring Ali would win it. But I feel a little false claiming Ali was the greatest given that I never watched him live.

..... thinks about it .......

OK Ali was greatest boxer ever. Tyson, second.


So what was the best fight you've ever seen?

tailwindhome

DonDaddyD wrote:

[I feel a little dirty saying I think Tyson was the greatest. In fact I think if the two at their peaks were to ever had met in the ring Ali would win it. But I feel a little false claiming Ali was the greatest given that I never watched him live.

'Who's the best' comparisons across generations are fun to debate....however I'd point out that Ali beat George Foreman, the 'Tyson' of his era.

If you like to read sports books try this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fight-Penguin-M ... 0141184140

greg66_tri_v2.0

DonDaddyD wrote:

So what was the best fight you've ever seen?

Bit difficult to top the Rumble...

dmr-kev

Best boxer - Ali

Best fighter - Tyson

tailwindhome

Any of the classic fights I've only seen on video

These guys could fight a bit too...any combination was a great fight.

DonDaddyD

TailWindHome wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

[I feel a little dirty saying I think Tyson was the greatest. In fact I think if the two at their peaks were to ever had met in the ring Ali would win it. But I feel a little false claiming Ali was the greatest given that I never watched him live.

'Who's the best' comparisons across generations are fun to debate....however I'd point out that Ali beat George Foreman, the 'Tyson' of his era.

If you like to read sports books try this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fight-Penguin-M ... 0141184140

In terms of style I would have thought Joe Fraizer was more the Tyson of his era. Given the height and the way the two attempt to roll under the jab. Fraizer was also fast, like Tyson.

Foreman by comparison was slow and a massive slugger.

DonDaddyD

TailWindHome wrote:

Any of the classic fights I've only seen on video

These guys could fight a bit too...any combination was a great fight.

Chapeau.

jonginge

dmr-kev wrote:

Best boxer - Ali

Best biter - Tyson

ftfy

desweller

Raising my hand as an occasional fan.

There's a bit of a heavyweight bias here. Are we allowed to move across weight divisions? I'd like to nominate Manny Pacqiao.

bigmat

DesWeller wrote:

Raising my hand as an occasional fan.

There's a bit of a heavyweight bias here. Are we allowed to move across weight divisions? I'd like to nominate Manny Pacqiao.

Oh yes, the Armstrong of boxing!

Ali is probably rightly considered the greatest. He was beatable but then all fighters are. At least he had the courage to take on the best throughout his career.

Sugar Ray Robinson was also pretty incredible, maybe even better than Ali, but doesn't transcend the sport in the same way.

Tyson was exciting, but really just a big Prince Naseem. As soon as he came up against someone who had him worked out that was it. Lewis, Holyfield, even Bowe, even old George would have beaten prime Mike.

TheStone

Best Fight: Benn v McClellan (although I've been catching up on the '4 kings' on youtube)

Best Current Boxer: I'd still say Mayweather and would love to see him fight Pacqiao

Best Ever Boxer: I think I still have to say Ali, but he was about a lot more than boxing. In the ring he was great, but maybe not as far ahead of everyone as his legacy seems to have become. Agree with DDD on Tyson. Amazing 'fighter'. He destroyed a generation of boxers. (I won't count Tyson v2 or v3).

rick_chasey

My boss is a big boxing fan and he massively rates Tyson.

He showed some of his really early fights in the '80s and it's absolutely frightening.

I read a quote somewhere about Tyson that said that some coaches recommended not going to hard at Tyson too early, else he get really angry and finish you off sooner.

flicksta

TheStone wrote:

Best Fight: Benn v McClellan (although I've been catching up on the '4 kings' on youtube)

Best Current Boxer: I'd still say Mayweather and would love to see him fight Pacqiao

Best Ever Boxer: I think I still have to say Ali, but he was about a lot more than boxing. In the ring he was great, but maybe not as far ahead of everyone as his legacy seems to have become. Agree with DDD on Tyson. Amazing 'fighter'. He destroyed a generation of boxers. (I won't count Tyson v2 or v3).

Cannot agree more. The greatest ever fight and I only popped into a pub on Earl's Court Road to watch the first couple of rounds, as McClellan was going to win so easily. Incredible heart from Benn given he was both down and through the ropes to early. Such a tragic outcome.

This, however, is the greatest boxing image ever, particularly given the build up

The Rookie

I would go with Ali as the best overall boxer, Tyson was a devastating weapon, but not a real boxer, this was highlighted how, as he lost his edge, he lost what cool he had something which Ali didn't do.

Other weight divisions have had their stars of course, but you get better longevity in the heavier divisions and that improves your chance of greatness as you overlap a greater number of potentially great boxers.

Ali fought Frazier/Cooper/Foreman, Tyson never fought that many 'great' fighters.

Simon

UndercoverElephant

The Beginner wrote:

I would go with Ali as the best overall boxer, Tyson was a devastating weapon, but not a real boxer, this was highlighted how, as he lost his edge, he lost what cool he had something which Ali didn't do.

Other weight divisions have had their stars of course, but you get better longevity in the heavier divisions and that improves your chance of greatness as you overlap a greater number of potentially great boxers.

Ali fought Frazier/Cooper/Foreman, Tyson never fought that many 'great' fighters.

Simon

Ali went on for a few too many fights as well, but I agree, he never lost control. That was the real difference between him and the others, his control. We all only remember Ali in his prime.

Tyson (pre-jail), was an amazing force, he never seemed to fight many greats, because what there was around him paled into insignificance against him. He was a machine. Sadly we all remember the post-jail Tyson.

andyb78

Oooo... can I play?

Best boxer? Sugar Ray Robinson.

Greatest boxer of all time? Ali.

Tyson had the potential, but suffered after Cus D'Amato died.

Greatest fight I've seen? Auturo Gatti Vs Mickey Ward, all 3 of them!

DonDaddyD

Watching that Tyson film and hearing him speak about what was going through his head at punch for punch during each fight... you get a real understanding of how quick he actually was.

The guy was as tall as a middleweight, light for a heavyweight and punched like a superhuman. His hands were fast arguably the fastest of any heavyweight fighter ever and he had incredible technique. I think all of that gets overlooked because his ferocity makes him look like a brawler but if you watch early tyson (before and upto the unification of the belts) and you watch his training sessions its just impressive stuff.

Benn v McClellan

I have to go with this as well. In fact I wanted to post it orginally but forgot the name of the fighter Benn fought.

I would go with Ali as the best overall boxer, Tyson was a devastating weapon, but not a real boxer, this was highlighted how, as he lost his edge, he lost what cool he had something which Ali didn't do.

Other weight divisions have had their stars of course, but you get better longevity in the heavier divisions and that improves your chance of greatness as you overlap a greater number of potentially great boxers.

Ali fought Frazier/Cooper/Foreman, Tyson never fought that many 'great' fighters.

Disagree with almost everything said here.

Define real boxer, watch early Tyson training sessions, listen to Cus D'Amato talk about Tyson. He was a real boxer, for me, right up until he retired as he clearly stated he doesn't have the hunger to box - something real boxers talk about all the time.

I don't think length of a career determines greatestness, people peak at different times.

You can only fight the fighters ahead of you. Ali fought his, as did Tyson as did Lennox as will Haye.

bigmat

DonDaddyD wrote:

Watching that Tyson film and hearing him speak about what was going through his head at punch for punch during each fight... you get a real understanding of how quick he actually was.

The guy was as tall as a middleweight, light for a heavyweight and punched like a superhuman. His hands were fast arguably the fastest of any heavyweight fighter ever and he had incredible technique. I think all of that gets overlooked because his ferocity makes him look like a brawler but if you watch early tyson (before and upto the unification of the belts) and you watch his training sessions its just impressive stuff.

Benn v McClellan

I have to go with this as well. In fact I wanted to post it orginally but forgot the name of the fighter Benn fought.

I would go with Ali as the best overall boxer, Tyson was a devastating weapon, but not a real boxer, this was highlighted how, as he lost his edge, he lost what cool he had something which Ali didn't do.

Other weight divisions have had their stars of course, but you get better longevity in the heavier divisions and that improves your chance of greatness as you overlap a greater number of potentially great boxers.

Ali fought Frazier/Cooper/Foreman, Tyson never fought that many 'great' fighters.

Disagree with almost everything said here.

Define real boxer, watch early Tyson training sessions, listen to Cus D'Amato talk about Tyson. He was a real boxer, for me, right up until he retired as he clearly stated he doesn't have the hunger to box - something real boxers talk about all the time.

I don't think length of a career determines greatestness, people peak at different times.

You can only fight the fighters ahead of you. Ali fought his, as did Tyson as did Lennox as will Haye.

That seems a pretty fair assessment of Tyson. He was technically very good - fast, explosive, great lateral head movement and therefore difficult to hit cleanly. Thing is, he was small for a heavyweight, and as soon as he faced a genuinely good, big heavy who wasn't intimidated by him, the game was up. I also don't think he was necessarily as big a puncher as seemed at the time - it tended to be quick bunches of punches bamboozling opponents and then he left them no opportunity to recover. Against a proper granite jaw (e.g. Holyfield) he looked very limited.

I think Haye has quite a few similarities to Tyson in terms of size and relative style to, say, Klitschko. Will be interesting to see how that one goes, hoping to catch it in the Alps after the Marmotte - that could be one hell of a day!

EDIT: I overlooked that last point; not sure Tyson did "fight the fighters ahead of him" - lots of stories of him ducking Lewis shortly after he regained the title post-prison. I think we know why. I think he steered well clear of Foreman as well. eFw, if any, modern boxers are immune from this criticism (maybe Froch?), which is one of the big reasons why an old-timer like Ali looks so great in comparison.

DonDaddyD

There is no conceivable way that a peak Holyfield could contend with a peak Tyson.

Even when Tyson lost (Buster Douglas, Holyfield 1) he took an amazing beating and in those fights he didn't even train properly.

Tyson used the Peek-a-boo boxing style (Floyd Patterson was also a fighter who used that style) Haye uses the Orthodox style. I don't see their qualities as the same at all. But its an interesting comparison.

I'm expecting Haye to have a war with Klitschko. He should win, if he is hungry enough.

Tyson was a massive puncher, he could knock you out with either hand and often only needed one to do it. It just so happens he could throw five in the time most people could throw half.

Edit: Tyson ducked Lewis but we Tyson V2 was a pale comparison to Tyson V1. And when he fought Lewis he was Tyson V3.

bigmat

DonDaddyD wrote:

There is no conceivable way that a peak Holyfield could contend with a peak Tyson.

Even when Tyson lost (Buster Douglas, Holyfield 1) he took an amazing beating and in those fights he didn't even train properly.

Tyson used the Peek-a-boo boxing style (Floyd Patterson was also a fighter who used that style) Haye uses the Orthodox style. I don't see their qualities as the same at all. But its an interesting comparison.

I'm expecting Haye to have a war with Klitschko. He should win, if he is hungry enough.

Tyson was a massive puncher, he could knock you out with either hand and often only needed one to do it. It just so happens he could throw five in the time most people could throw half.

Edit: Tyson ducked Lewis but we Tyson V2 was a pale comparison to Tyson V1. And when he fought Lewis he was Tyson V3.

Thing about these debates is we'll never know. Personally, I think Holyfield had Tyson's number. Before that fight, people were worried Holy might get killed - he was generally viewed as damaged goods - so its a bit "revisionist", shall we say, to start the whole "it wasn't peak Mike Tyson" argument. Peak Tyson didn't beat anybody like Holyfield. Peak Tyson also didn't beat anybody as big and skilful as Lewis. Crucially, peak Tyson didn't beat anybody that was big, fast and mentally strong. I still think Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe and Foreman could have beaten him at any stage in his career and that's just a pick of the guys who were around at the same time.

Tyson was good value though, very exciting to watch and helped the heavyweight scene through a pretty thin few years. That's where the Haye comparison comes in. I agree they have different styles, but both are smaller, faster, more mobile heavyweights who are aggressive and considered big punchers, with a pretty dire bunch of lumps to clean up. Credit to Tyson, he got the job done a lot more quickly than Haye has so far managed...

TheStone

BigMat wrote:

I still think Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe and Foreman could have beaten him at any stage in his career and that's just a pick of the guys who were around at the same time.

-1

bigmat

"Could" have - I'm not saying Tyson wouldn't have had a chance, but I think those kinds of boxer would've posed him massive problems. Was it Bonecrusher Smith who took "prime" Tyson the distance? That was probably one of the earlier fights when it was shown that he wasn't the irrepressible force of nature people believed. The fighters I've listed were all a class above Smith (and most other heavyweights in history).

tobermory

andyb78 wrote:

Oooo... can I play?

Best boxer? Sugar Ray Robinson.

Greatest boxer of all time? Ali.

Tyson had the potential, but suffered after Cus D'Amato died.

Greatest fight I've seen? Auturo Gatti Vs Mickey Ward, all 3 of them!

so right robinson was a superb ring artist,ali could sell a fight,fighter not always mentioned is Carlos Monzon at middleweight a truly great fighter.
The most brutal fight i have seen Benn v McLennen.
Plus the tear up's between Alan Minter and Kevin Finnegan were brilliant British fights.

tailwindhome

BigMat wrote:

Personally, I think Holyfield had Tyson's number...

I watched the 'ear biting' fight.

If you have it on DVD watch the pre fight announcements from the MC. He introduces Mike Tyson as the 'youngest man to win the heavyweight title' the expression on Tyson's face is amazing. It's like every little bit of self believe he ever had evaporates. The fight was over from that moment.

@DDD

My comparison of Foreman as the 'Tyson' of his day was more to do with the aura of sheer menance he exuded as he wrecked the entire heavyweight division.

When he fought Ali, no one not even Ali's own people thought he stood a chance.

Read Norman Mailer's The Fight...fabulous piece of writing

jawooga

I just remember Tyson being sh1t scary (technical term).

Tyson vs Bruno 1 was about the first fight I remember, and i cannot comment on eras earlier than this - people have mentioned Frazier and Liston and my dad has talked in the past about the Liston myths.

But I think someone mentioned it earlier - Tyson was shear menace. And I think the aura of fear surrounding Tyson was hard to match. He mentioned himself in that More4 documentary about having had the fight won mentally before he entered the ring.

Check out the terror in Bruno's face. I still feel sorry for him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rMhdYlxx1k

Later on, in the fight, you see one of the best upper cuts when Bruno's head is nearly taken off his neck.

---

I don't think anyone's mentioned the Eubank vs Benn fights. Loved all that.

And, as much as I'd rather watch professional boxing, I'll throw Mario Kindelan in to the mix.

andyb78

jawooga Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 5:56 pm Post subject:

---

I just remember Tyson being sh1t scary (technical term).

Tyson vs Bruno 1 was about the first fight I remember, and i cannot comment on eras earlier than this - people have mentioned Frazier and Liston and my dad has talked in the past about the Liston myths.

But I think someone mentioned it earlier - Tyson was shear menace. And I think the aura of fear surrounding Tyson was hard to match. He mentioned himself in that More4 documentary about having had the fight won mentally before he entered the ring.

Check out the terror in Bruno's face. I still feel sorry for him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rMhdYlxx1k

Later on, in the fight, you see one of the best upper cuts when Bruno's head is nearly taken off his neck.

*sheer* (see other thread ) Tyson took that mantle from Big Grilling George, who in turn had taken it from Liston. Such a shame with Bruno - his (since well documented) mental and emotional issues hampered him every time he fought for a world title, along with his tendancy to freeze and not think when hit with a big shot. However, it's not bad praise when Iron Mike says you're the person who has hit him with the hardest punch.

If we're talking amateurs, and heavyweight specifically, Felix Savon is worth a shout....