Raleigh High Tensile 18-23 cycle tubing

mz__jo

I have just cut up a frame built from this tube set. For those of you who might find or be offered a frame made with this tubing (this frame was from about 1990) I will give the details. Please bear in mind that I am measuring a very well painted frame, the bare metal figures should be 0.1-0.2mm smaller.

This is seamed and welded tube, not drawn cycle tubing. The seat tube measures 28.9mm diametre for 1.4mm wall thickness; the top tube is 25.6mm diametre for 1.1mm wall; the down tube is 28.9mm with a massive 1.8mm wall thickness (and it got bent!!). This was a Raleigh hybrid frame bought originally by a mate in UK and bent by my niece's ex-boyfriend in the grids of a grain store. When I think that I was all set to try to repair it!!

Don't part with your money for one of these thinking that Raleigh cycle tubing must be good; collectable perhaps but still rubbish. (In case you are wondering, no, I had it for free).

Cheers Jo

stickman

The snobs will call it gas pipe, even though it's the same sort of weight as 531st. It's certainly no 953 but ok for a basic everyday bike, Raleigh used it on various bikes.

mz__jo

I think you will find that 531st has wall thicknesses between 0.7 and 1.0mm. If anyone has tube set weights for this stuff and for 531 I would be glad to see them. I don't think that 18-23 bears comparison with the older TI Truwel series like 205 or 20-30 (or with taiwanese Cro-Mo). I will check up the tube set weights for Gara and Thron (and Aelle if I can find it) and popst them.

stickman

On a bike, I replaced unknown brand high tensile forks with 531st and the 531st was slightly heavier, hardly anything, but still heavier, the 531st had canti bosses without them the weight may have been equal. Of course, the 531st is much better quality.

mz__jo

For Gara (which is basic plain gauge drawn tubing) the biggest main triangle tube is the down tube in the mtb set (comparable to the frame I cut up) has a wall thicknessof 1.0mm for a 31.7mm diametre. All the other thicknesses are 0.8mm in both road and mtb sets. The tube set weights are 1737g for the mtb in 45.5mm size and 1530g for a road frame in 54mm size.

Don't forget when you make comparisons with 531st that you are looking at double butted drawn tubing. 531 was made in plain gauge and from memory the frame that I had in it was comparable in weight with my Gitane race frame in Columbus Cromo tubing (an ancestor to Thron and lighter than Gara).

I think my original remark that 18-23 is a cheap, heavy and poor quality tube holds. Frames made from it might be collectable but they are certainly not quality lightweights. This was probably Raleigh's attempt to combat cheap Chinese imports by reducing component quality to reduce costs.

stickman

Some people have a more favourable opinion than me http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f ... 13&start=0

mz__jo

I will take Chris Juden's opinion as gospel.

Which is why someone will explain to me how a frame made with the wall thicknesses that I measured is considered to be as light as one built in 531ST which is double butted 0.7-1.0mm tubes (with fork blades that are butted with a max thickness of 1.2mm). Read Chris Juden's reply to see that those that think this are WRONG.

stickman

Reynolds say a 531st frame weighs 2200g. (No frame size specified.)

mz__jo

The Columbus weights that I quoted are from the current technical information which I got here

http://www.framebuilding.com/Columbus%20Tubing.htm

The weights quoted I now realise are without fork tubes (since the modern practice is to quote frames without forks; that damnes c word again).

More comparable weights are to be had here

http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/columb ... schart.htm

and here

http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/reynol ... ochure.htm

Reynolds tube dimensions here

http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/reynol ... -sizes.jpg

Reynolds seem to be quoting 2300 grams for 531ST but their thin blades are very thick when you look at their profile dimensions.

I would put the weight of the 18-23 frame that I cut up as comparable with a chinese steel mtb frame that I had (and have passed on to a friend). It weighed 4500 grams with the forks - but was still a very nice ride. I am sure that you would have condemned it without a second thought! Just goes to prove the value of Chris Juden's comments on the subject.

I am not against seamed cycle tubing as such; I have a french frame from the 1940's that has seamed tubes and rides very nicely - but the tubes are respectably thin (using the "fingernail" test) and the finished bike is respectably light. Vitus apparently made seamed cycle tubing that was comparable with the drawn products from Columbus and Reynolds. I wish I could find some technical info on it.

Cheers Jo

stickman

I weighed an 18-23 frame yesterday, with headset cups in and not including fork, 2375g, wish I knew what to deduct for the cups.

stickman

Ps,

953 is seamed. Not their usual method but they had to make it that way.

saintdracula

But 18-23 rides nicely though! It's a nice - heavy, stable - ride; somehow feels stiffer than 531.

mz__jo

stickman wrote:

I weighed an 18-23 frame yesterday, with headset cups in and not including fork, 2375g, wish I knew what to deduct for the cups.

I still have the 18-23 fork here, I can weigh it. I would guess about 1kg which makes the whole thing about 3.5kg, lighter than the one I cut up I think but still a lot heavier than 531.
The cups don't weigh much, again I can weigh a pair (if they will register on the kitchen scales).

mz__jo

saintdracula wrote:

But 18-23 rides nicely though! It's a nice - heavy, stable - ride; somehow feels stiffer than 531.

You are supposed to like that springy 531 feeling. Heavier, less resilient steels do soak up the bumps better though, I would agree. They also soak up the bumps better than aluminium, which isn't as springy as steel. Weight has a lot do with it, I think.

Incidentally, if the wall thickness is 30% thicker it would be normal for the tubes to be stiffer, resistance to deflection is affected more by material thickness than by steel type. Steel type affects the maximum force above which the material does not return to its original form after deflection.

stickman

mz__jo wrote:

stickman wrote:

I weighed an 18-23 frame yesterday, with headset cups in and not including fork, 2375g, wish I knew what to deduct for the cups.

The cups don't weigh much, again I can weigh a pair (if they will register on the kitchen scales).

Thanks

mz__jo

It may have to wait until my wife goes back to work friday so that I can pinch the kitchen scales. That's the problem with non-cyclists!

mz__jo

The fork weights as follows

Forks from 18-23 frame (unicrown with canti mounts, 700c) 980gr

Forks from cheap, crappy hybrid that got chucked (700c, unicrown, with canti mounts, unknown crap steel, same length steerer as the 18-23 forks) 980gr

Forks from my old Carlton that got run into (27", cast fork crown,no cantis but a lamp boss and bolt, unknown steel - not 531, probably Truwel, a Raleigh Carlton!) 900gr.

Sorry, the frame cups weren't still with the Carlton frame, I will weigh them when I find them, also a pair of canti mounts that I think I still have somewhere.

Sorry for the delay

Cheers Jo

stickman

That's ok.
Interesting to see these weights.

mz__jo

I didn't say but the Carlton forks are also a bit bigger, longer steerer. That was a nice frame, if a bit heavy. I did my first Brevet Montagnard on it, in the Jura. You just know when a frame is right for you!!

wgwarburton

Hi,
At one point I had two fixies, one made from 531c (a Marlboro, still got it) and from 18-23 seamed tubing (Raleigh Equipe, chainstay rusted through).

Built up with similar components (and the same gear ratio, BTW) the 531c frame weighed about 2Kg (!) less than the Equipe. In addition the 18-23 Equipe frame felt "dead" and wasn't much fun to ride. the 531c frame feels lively and comfortable, light and quick...

I dare say the Marlboro was better built as well as being made of better stuff, but really, the two bikes were night & day to ride!

I think I paid about £12 for the equipe as a complete bike, £35 or so for the Marlboro frame+forks. They were both bargains, but the Marlboro was by far the better buy!!

Cheers,
W.