what makes a frame worth upgrading?

concorde

Can someone please tell me what makes a fram that is 'worth upgrading' For example people say bikes such as erm I donow a Carrera Vulcan for example, worth buying but not worht upgrading. But then there's say a Decathlon Rockrider 8.1 which is. (I'm not comparing the two I'm just picking 2) WHy is one worth upgrading and the other not? What it's made of? Weight or what is it?

Cheers

cooldad

People say all sorts of things.
A decent frame with mediocre or average spec is worth upgrading.
But your question is a how long is a piece of string.
If you are thinking of buying a bike, buying cheap and upgrading rarely makes sense, it is normally cheaper to buy decent spec from the beginning.

thegiantbiker

Do you enjoy riding it?

Then the frame's probably worth some better parts if you want to upgrade.

Usually, if a bike's popular on the "your mountain bikes" section, then that's one to go for.

But as cooldad said, it's probably worth just getting the sort of spec you want in the first place.

bluechair84

The frame can make up a lot of weight of a bike - a light frame will stop, accelerate and turn much quicker. As you begin to fine tune your riding style and find a niche of riding that you enjoy the most, you might want get a frame with angles better suited to that style. Many people talk about 'compliance' where a hardtail has some give and comfort from the back end but I think this is only really noticeable to more advanced riders who are pushing their frames capabilities more than a beginner might.

Having said that, angles make the biggest difference and their is no barrier to a cheap frame having good angles so you might find the cheapest frame the one that excites you most. No reason why it couldn't other than RnD costs...

diy

When the total cost will give you a bike that is better than the total cost if you sold it and spent the upgrade money on replacing it.

concorde

Ok cheers. Was just wondering as I have heard posters say for instance a specialised hardrock has a good frame and will last forever and if thats your budget then it's worth an upgrade. But on the other hand I've seen posted about a Carerra Vulcan not worth upgrading. But the other parts are better speced. So to re-phrase my question. Why id it not worth upgrading a vulcan frame?

Thanks

neiltb

lower quality material and frame design (double butted tubes vs plain guage, quality of welds, profiled tubes, tapered headset vs non etc)the fancy stuff all costs money.

Some bikes in a manufacturers range will use the same frame, if yours is the lowest priced example of that frame then the components have been comprimised to achieve a price.

Vulcan frames may be of a lower quality/older design but may be built in the same factory as said specialized and might ride just as well (especially once brand snobbery comes into the equation).

sc999cs

I think where the Carerra is involved there is a lot of brand snobbery. i.e. it isn't worth upgrading just because it's a Halford's bike. In other words there will be no concrete reason why bike A is better than bike B at the same price point, except bike A has a 'better' brand name in the eyes of the poster.

concorde

Hmmmmmmm yeah. I thought as much. Was just wondering. I was thinking was it genuine things like the frame will snap before the rest?! lol.

diy

Well you do need to check things like max fork length etc.. For example you could fit 140mm forks to a rockhopper, but it would not do the frame or ride any good.

concorde

Yeah I was kind of aware of that. I was mainly wondering whether it's the materials they are made from because there can't be that much stopping a budget bike company making a frame with exactly teh same geometry as a 'good' company?!?! So then it must just come down to materials and parts?!

cooldad

A lot of the time you are paying for the name. A lot of frames are made in the same factories in the far east, to similar standards.
Design is part of it, but spec probably not to the degree you would think.

clamps81

I think a large of part of is just personal preference and feel. If you buy a fairly cheapo bike and fall in love with it then rationality rapidly leaves and you can easily blow the original purchase price of the thing upgrading it past what the top of the line model in that range would have. If you're not that kind of person then you'll do the sensible thing and flog it to recoup as much value as possible and upgrade to a more complete package with matched components.

There's a degree of sense and analysis involved (and of course a point where it is just absolutely not worth it), but it depends on you and your bike at the end of the day.

tim_wand

I guy I really respect who's spent years in the industry told me when I was just a young pup, If you put full Dura Ace or XTR on a bed frame then your still riding a bed frame.

However you buy a quality frame and gradually wear out the Hong Shong Fuey components attatched to it and then upgrade them You've still got a quality frame.

A house can have a fantastic interior but if it aint built on solid foundations its gonna come down.

If you love the ride charachteristics of your frame, and it fits you right ,then spending money on good tyres, wheels then groupset is only going to make it better.

There is a law of diminishing returns but if the frame feels right, fits right , good components are only going to make it better.

concorde

Yeah that's what I was getting at. The part about it being a 'bed frame' is it actually a bed frame though? Or is it just a different frame but people don't like the name.

cooldad

You still seem to be missing the point.
Go into Halfords and pick up an Apollo and Boardman of similar sizes. Check out the difference in weight.
Then look at the quality of the welds.
One is a budget frame, but a good one, one is absolute rubbish. A 'bed' frame as the poster above called it. Or a BSO as the rest of us might. Carreras are not BSO's.
A good frame doesn't have to be expensive, but won't be bargain basement, as lightness and decent workmanship does cost something, but not a fortune, especially when made in bulk.
The only thing that you can't tell easily is design, and a lot of that is personal, what feels good to you might not suit me.
But a decent frame will not break easily. A rubbish one will, probably at the welds, and a really light one might, as material has been removed for lightness.
But if you are concerned about Carrera in general, I have an old (early 80's) road bike, in Reynolds 531 steel. It is lighter than many modern decent aluminium frames, rides beautifully, and still going strong after 20 years. Styley roadies may look down their noses at it, but on the rare occasion when I feel like a road ride, it's a load of fun, and perfectly suited to country lanes.
I've never ridden a Carrera MTB, but if I was looking for a new bike, I'd definitely take a look.

concorde

I wasn't really worried about Apollos etc as it goes without saying that there's no point in upgrading one of their frames. Was more concerned about the ones that are considered decent enough to buy. Obviously a 2k bike is going to be a better frame than a bottom end one due to the parts but I've seen it claimed a few times about no point upgrading a carrera frame and I can see no legitimate arguements why not to?! That's what I was trying to find out really.

cooldad

There are none, but I wouldn't put XTR stuff, flyweight cranks and £1000 wheelsets on it, that would be stupid. But a decent Recon or Tora fork to replace a Dart or something would be a worthwhile upgrade. As an example.

Plenty of people on here ride them, and rave about them.
What you are getting is a bike that with a brand name would cost probably 30% to 50% more. And people will happily pay it.

concorde

That's exactly what I was thinking and was just after someone saying it :-) I'm not even sure I imterpreted the 'it's pointless upgrading that frame' threads correctly. They might have been referring to XTR stuff etc. I was thinking more in terms how you have put it with the Tora forks etc

Cheers

Moostah

I am reading this thread with much interest, as I find myself in a similar situation. I currently have a 2007 (I think) GT Avalanche 3.0 and thinking about either upgrading it, as I like how it looks and how it rides. Or save up some cash and treat myself, unfortunately I fell in love with a Trek 8000/8500 which is a lot of cash. :shock:

paulbox

I personally think that all bikes are worth upgrading. Obviously you shouldn't put a £1k wheelset on a £150 bike, you'd be far better off buying a £1k bike... But even if it's just a new set of £20 bars to improve the handling or a new saddle, if it makes the bike better for you, then it's worth doing.

My GT hardtail is a 'Backwoods' frame, I bought the bike back in the early 90's. The RRP was about £650 and I got it for £450 as it was the previous year's model. It was fully rigid with Shimano components including centre pull brakes.

As my Anthem frame has cracked I will be using my GT for this evening's ride to the pub, the only original component on the frame is the seat post. Over the years I'd estimate that I've spent about £1.5k on various bits and pieces for the bike including some good (at the time!) Marzocchi Bomber's, XT / XTR components, Flite titanium, Middleburn cranks, Spin wheels, etc etc. Oh, and the huge upgrade to XT V-brakes!

Would I have been better off spending £1.5k on a new bike? Yes, without a doubt. But in truth, I never had £1.5k at any one time, I just bought upgraded bits as and when I either needed to replace something that was knackered or if I had a few quid and wanted something new and shiney. I've enjoyed it and the bike is still good to ride. I'm actually looking forward to what will be its first outing in about 6 months this evening...

concorde

PaulBox wrote:

I personally think that all bikes are worth upgrading. Obviously you shouldn't put a £1k wheelset on a £150 bike, you'd be far better off buying a £1k bike... But even if it's just a new set of £20 bars to improve the handling or a new saddle, if it makes the bike better for you, then it's worth doing.

My GT hardtail is a 'Backwoods' frame, I bought the bike back in the early 90's. The RRP was about £650 and I got it for £450 as it was the previous year's model. It was fully rigid with Shimano components including centre pull brakes.

As my Anthem frame has cracked I will be using my GT for this evening's ride to the pub, the only original component on the frame is the seat post. Over the years I'd estimate that I've spent about £1.5k on various bits and pieces for the bike including some good (at the time!) Marzocchi Bomber's, XT / XTR components, Flite titanium, Middleburn cranks, Spin wheels, etc etc. Oh, and the huge upgrade to XT V-brakes!

Would I have been better off spending £1.5k on a new bike? Yes, without a doubt. But in truth, I never had £1.5k at any one time, I just bought upgraded bits as and when I either needed to replace something that was knackered or if I had a few quid and wanted something new and shiney. I've enjoyed it and the bike is still good to ride. I'm actually looking forward to what will be its first outing in about 6 months this evening...

Excellent :-) Enjoy man!

nozzac

One major advantage of upgrading vs buying a new bike is that significant others don't notice!

concorde

Haha yeah that's true!!

I think it may be worth upgrading the forks on a Carrera Vulcan from the standard suntour things to Rockshox Tora or a Recon. They're only about a ton. That sounds resonable to upgrade I think.