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the AV system

Cleat EastwoodCleat Eastwood Posts: 7,510
edited April 2011 in The bottom bracket
well thats me convinced...

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The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.

Posts

  • it's a load of rubbish though, not all pubs are the same. What if I don't like The Red Lion (racist), The Castle (crackpots), The Green Man (hippies) and only want to drink in the Queen's Head. If I can't go there, I don't want to go anywhere.

    The above pic could quite as easily say 80% of people don't want to go to the Red Lion.
  • OlliedaOllieda Posts: 1,010
    What if the voter for The Green Man had a second choice of the coffee shop? Everyone would be a bit stuck then!
  • CressersCressers Posts: 1,329
    How could AV, where a third-placed candidate in the first ballot could win the seat with preference votes, even be considered as a credible optiion?

    Ah, yes, it was the £100m cost of Clegg becomming Cameron's codpiece...
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 52,710 Lives Here
    Cressers wrote:
    How could AV, where a third-placed candidate in the first ballot could win the seat with preference votes, even be considered as a credible optiion?

    Because putting your 'preference' down still counts as a vote. If you only think there is one credible option, only put a number down next to that candidate, and leave the others blank.
  • CressersCressers Posts: 1,329
    But as it's not certain if the referendum is advisory or binding I have no way of knowing what the eventual act implementing AV in the event of the Yes campaign winnning would specify, were it even to pass cross-party opposition in the commons and lords. Would my vote be invalidated or spoilt if I refused to give a prefference? That may happen.

    Whatever the result, we are in for interesting times post referendum result...
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 52,710 Lives Here
    Cressers wrote:
    . Would my vote be invalidated or spoilt if I refused to give a prefference? That may happen.

    No it wouldn't.

    People make out the UK has never had AV

    The European elections are AV.
  • CressersCressers Posts: 1,329
    I don't vote in euro elections because I don't recognise the authority of the EU and the voting system is AV.

    Can you be so sure about the provisions of an act that has yet to be written?
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 52,710 Lives Here
    Cressers wrote:
    I don't vote in euro elections because I don't recognise the authority of the EU and the voting system is AV.

    Can you be so sure about the provisions of an act that has yet to be written?

    Well yes, because you can't have a referendum on something and THEN change the rules.

    That's totally pointless and won't happen.

    You don't vote in Euro elections because you don't regonise the authority?

    Pfft, sounds like I'm unlikely to reach a reasonable conclusion with you on this one....
  • CressersCressers Posts: 1,329
    But I feel good about having you as my stalker...
  • notsobluenotsoblue Posts: 5,838
    Cressers wrote:
    I don't vote in euro elections because I don't recognise the authority of the EU and the voting system is AV.

    Fight the power! The best way to influence a democratic process is to not vote. Clearly.
  • CressersCressers Posts: 1,329
    Voting only encourages Them...
  • OlliedaOllieda Posts: 1,010
    But seriously what would happen if the green man second vote was for the coffee shop?

    You'd have one at 40% and 3 at 20%. Would all 3 of those have to then move to second votes? You would need all of them not to have the coffee shop as a second/third vote. If Red lion then won you would have a choice that in the first instance 80% of people didn't want to go to!
  • TheStoneTheStone Posts: 2,291
    Not really for or against AV. It's an option, but I doubt it'll make much difference to the outcome despite what both sides seem to be saying.

    The thing that annoys me is that the Lib Dems as part of forming a coalition, had the opportunity to push some things through or stop others from happening and they chose this???

    They could have probably stopped tuition fees, or insisted the Tories actually make some proper cuts (nhs anyone?), but instead they went for a pointless change to the voting system!!!!
    exercise.png
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 52,710 Lives Here
    TheStone wrote:
    Not really for or against AV. It's an option, but I doubt it'll make much difference to the outcome despite what both sides seem to be saying.

    The thing that annoys me is that the Lib Dems as part of forming a coalition, had the opportunity to push some things through or stop others from happening and they chose this???

    They could have probably stopped tuition fees, or insisted the Tories actually make some proper cuts (nhs anyone?), but instead they went for a pointless change to the voting system!!!!

    It's not pointless.

    The way governments are elected is fundamental to the way governments form policy. If only a handful of middle class swing voters in key seats have votes that impact general election results, then they will be disproportionately represented. The more representative the elctoral outcome is, the more representative the policies will be.

    AV is defintely more represetative than FPTP.
  • TheStoneTheStone Posts: 2,291

    It's not pointless.

    The way governments are elected is fundamental to the way governments form policy. If only a handful of middle class swing voters in key seats have votes that impact general election results, then they will be disproportionately represented. The more representative the elctoral outcome is, the more representative the policies will be.

    AV is defintely more represetative than FPTP.

    Could it make that worse?

    Most policies are aimed at the older generation. They've dumbed down education so much that the younger generation not longer care, don't vote and have no idea how badly they're being screwed!

    Not sure how AV will change that. Yet to read an article based on anything approaching a proper study that says otherwise.

    ..... but I may be wrong!
    exercise.png
  • It's not pointless.

    The way governments are elected is fundamental to the way governments form policy. If only a handful of middle class swing voters in key seats have votes that impact general election results, then they will be disproportionately represented. The more representative the elctoral outcome is, the more representative the policies will be.

    AV is defintely more represetative than FPTP.

    Great! A more representative way of electing a slightly different set of scumbags!

    :D
  • OlliedaOllieda Posts: 1,010
    It's not pointless.

    The way governments are elected is fundamental to the way governments form policy. If only a handful of middle class swing voters in key seats have votes that impact general election results, then they will be disproportionately represented. The more representative the elctoral outcome is, the more representative the policies will be.

    AV is defintely more represetative than FPTP.

    The thing is the Yes group keep going on about how AV will stop "safe seats" but all of their computer models that show how AV would have changed previous votes show the vast majority of "safe seats" as "safe seats" the only places there was major change is in the "swing seats" in other words AV will make the "safe seats" into "safe seats" and the "swing seats" into "swing seats". Good work!

    As for tatical voting, I think people are overestimating the voting public a fair bit in thinking that large numbers are tatical voting! However, assuming everyone does this then surely AV is only making it easier to tatical vote (e.g. someone who only voted Monster Raving Looney party under FPTP would vote MRLP under AV, however they are not likely to win so they'll put say Tory second to stop labour getting their vote)
  • TheStoneTheStone Posts: 2,291
    You can get nearly 6/1 on a YES vote, so looks like we're stuck with what we've got. This is surprising because you'd think most people would vote to change what we've got even if the only option is a slightly different version of what we have.

    The Lib Dems should have pushed for a PR vote, or wasted their energy on something else (that actually matters).

    I now really hope there's a tiny turnout so at least the political class get some idea of the contempt we hold most of them in.
    If hardly anyone turns up to this stupid media over exaggerated wedding too, it will be a good couple of weeks.
    exercise.png
  • notsoblue wrote:
    av-dogshit.gif

    Maybe this would be more realistic had it involved Dog, Cow and Horse sh!t - Different flavours but all unpleasant in their own special way
    Has the head wind picked up or the tail wind dropped off???
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 52,710 Lives Here
    Ollieda wrote:
    It's not pointless.

    The way governments are elected is fundamental to the way governments form policy. If only a handful of middle class swing voters in key seats have votes that impact general election results, then they will be disproportionately represented. The more representative the elctoral outcome is, the more representative the policies will be.

    AV is defintely more represetative than FPTP.

    The thing is the Yes group keep going on about how AV will stop "safe seats" but all of their computer models that show how AV would have changed previous votes show the vast majority of "safe seats" as "safe seats" the only places there was major change is in the "swing seats" in other words AV will make the "safe seats" into "safe seats" and the "swing seats" into "swing seats". Good work!

    As for tatical voting, I think people are overestimating the voting public a fair bit in thinking that large numbers are tatical voting! However, assuming everyone does this then surely AV is only making it easier to tatical vote (e.g. someone who only voted Monster Raving Looney party under FPTP would vote MRLP under AV, however they are not likely to win so they'll put say Tory second to stop labour getting their vote)

    Are you saying that AV is less representative than FPTP?

    Anyone can come up with any number of examples where each system is rubbish. You need to consider a) how likely said example is going to occur and b) what impact said example will have.
  • shouldbeinbedshouldbeinbed Posts: 2,732
    Cressers wrote:
    . Would my vote be invalidated or spoilt if I refused to give a prefference? That may happen.

    No it wouldn't.

    People make out the UK has never had AV

    The European elections are AV.

    Thought the euros were proper PR with parties getting allocated seats based on their proportion of the vote (hence my area having Nick Griffin as one of the MEPs) not the farcical its a knockout style of AV where they keep recounting people's multi vote until the least worst compromise candidate is left
  • jim453jim453 Posts: 1,420
    Is a 'least worst compromise' any less appropriate than a party for whom seventy percent of the electorate did not vote for?
  • shouldbeinbedshouldbeinbed Posts: 2,732
    I
    jim453 wrote:
    Is a 'least worst compromise' any less appropriate than a party for whom seventy percent of the electorate did not vote for?

    No, its no different to pretty much all practical purposes.

    Is it appropriate that someone who isn't the electorates (that bit that goes out to vote) most popular 1st choice could still become 1st choice by having someones ballot paper counted 2 & 3 times?

    People that come through AV still won't be the preferred choice of 70% of the electorate
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 52,710 Lives Here
    Cressers wrote:
    . Would my vote be invalidated or spoilt if I refused to give a prefference? That may happen.

    No it wouldn't.

    People make out the UK has never had AV

    The European elections are AV.

    Thought the euros were proper PR with parties getting allocated seats based on their proportion of the vote (hence my area having Nick Griffin as one of the MEPs) not the farcical its a knockout style of AV where they keep recounting people's multi vote until the least worst compromise candidate is left
    Did you vote in the European election? I distinctly remember having to put numbers down.
  • shouldbeinbedshouldbeinbed Posts: 2,732
    Cressers wrote:
    . Would my vote be invalidated or spoilt if I refused to give a prefference? That may happen.

    No it wouldn't.

    People make out the UK has never had AV

    The European elections are AV.

    Thought the euros were proper PR with parties getting allocated seats based on their proportion of the vote (hence my area having Nick Griffin as one of the MEPs) not the farcical its a knockout style of AV where they keep recounting people's multi vote until the least worst compromise candidate is left
    Did you vote in the European election? I distinctly remember having to put numbers down.

    yes I did, you spoiled your ballot paper unless you voted in N Ireland.

    linky to how to vote in the last euros: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8070470.stm
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 52,710 Lives Here
    Fair enough.
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