Pip and Cancellara: Top Honours and historical comparisons

Yellow Peril
Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
edited April 2011 in Pro race
As a really great classics season draws to a close, this part of the season has (arguably) been dominated by two riders Pip and Spartacus.

They have very different strengths in terms of riding but, if forced to choose, which would you crown king of the road?

Also which of the Greats from cycling history do the forum think each rider compare most with?
@JaunePeril

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Comments

  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    As a really great classics season draws to a close, this part of the season has (arguably) been dominated by two riders Pip and Spartacus.

    They have very different strengths in terms of riding but, if forced to choose, which would you crown king of the road?

    Also which of the Greats from cycling history do the forum think each rider compare most with?

    Gilbert because he can win cobbled races, hilly races and Paris-Tours. Compared to the other one-day racers, nobody comes close to being as versatile as PG.

    It's difficult to compare cyclists across eras, due to modern-day specialisation, but Pip Gilbert could be compared to Tom Simpson - attacking, versatile, a god bet for at least a decent win or two every season.
  • EKIMIKE
    EKIMIKE Posts: 2,232
    I think Pip is an all-round better classics rider but Canc is a better all-round rider across the board. If either of them were to win the Worlds it would be a real feather to their cap.

    Pip really needs more monuments. Hopefully he increases his total by 50% on Sunday.
    Canyon Endurace CF 2014 | Canyon Ultimate CF 2010
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    EKIMIKE wrote:
    I think Pip is an all-round better classics rider but Canc is a better all-round rider across the board. If either of them were to win the Worlds it would be a real feather to their cap.

    Pip really needs more monuments. Hopefully he increases his total by 50% on Sunday.

    He has two monuments already id say that's not bad going at his age especially if you consider all things being equal he is likely to get more, of the current Peleton only Fab,Boonen,Cunego and Freire have more than two .
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • babyjebus
    babyjebus Posts: 93
    I would have said Gilbert all the way, not least because we pretty much share a surname. But now I find his baby son is called 'Alan'. Alan! What's wrong with Tom? It's good enough for my boy and Mrs Boonen's lad.
    Gilbert is the most watchable rider out there, in that he catches the eye by always visibly trying hard, while Cancellara catches the eye by looking effortlessly good- it's Messi v Ronaldo, Bobet v Kubler, Lady Gaga v Polly Harvey [insert pointless comparison of your own here]
    I'm going with Gilbert. He is the best value racer in years, worth a Eurosport subscription by himself. The fact that he wheezes through even the shortest stage races makes me suspect he's relatively clean, but who can tell anymore? He gets daddy shouting anyway.
  • Tom Butcher
    Tom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    I reckon over their careers Gilbert will probably go on and take more major one day wins than Cancellara simply because Gilbert as a Belgian in a Belgian team is likely to get far more support for his goals than Cancellara is in Leopard. For that reason I'm going to go for Gilbert. Plus Gilbert has already won more one dayers this season and has more opportunities to win for the rest of the season.

    Not sure I'd say they are dominant though - Boonen is very close to them even now and over their careers Boonen and Freire could argue (depending on how you rate time trial wins) they have a better palmares than either so far.
    it's a hard life if you don't weaken.
  • ozzzyosborn206
    ozzzyosborn206 Posts: 1,340
    i don't really rate the average tt win but the olympics and worlds are huge,
  • Tom Butcher
    Tom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    I don't know - Olympic or Worlds RR I'd have as huge - alongside the monuments - I wouldn't have the TTs as important as the road races so they'd have to rank lower than the monuments - maybe a semi classic. It's all subjective isn't it - I know many will disagree - but judging one day riders it's probably best to set the TTs aside.
    it's a hard life if you don't weaken.
  • Moontrane
    Moontrane Posts: 233
    PG has won some meaningful races this year, and the wins get the headlines. But who was the last rider to be on the podium for all three spring monuments in one season? Kelly? Methinks that's rarefied territory.

    Overall, though, PG has only one unique monument to FC's three. I hope that PG gets two more so we can see a race within the season(s) to see who gets their fourth first. (Say those last two words fast three times!)
    Infinite diversity, infinte variations
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Moontrane wrote:

    Overall, though, PG has only one unique monument to FC's three. I hope that PG gets two more so we can see a race within the season(s) to see who gets their fourth first. (Say those last two words fast three times!)

    I can see PG winning Flanders, or MSR, or LBL or even Roubaix.

    Can't see Cancellera ever winning LBL or Lombardy.

    Boonen has had a few seasons who are pretty close to what Cancellera has achieved this year. Hell, in some of those years Boonen actually managed to win a race :wink:
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,571
    I agree with Iain, in fact I'd go as far as to say Cancellara will never win Liege or Lombardy. For me, Gilbert is the more complete rider.
  • Moontrane
    Moontrane Posts: 233
    iainf72 wrote:
    Moontrane wrote:

    Overall, though, PG has only one unique monument to FC's three. I hope that PG gets two more so we can see a race within the season(s) to see who gets their fourth first. (Say those last two words fast three times!)

    I can see PG winning Flanders, or MSR, or LBL or even Roubaix.

    Can't see Cancellera ever winning LBL or Lombardy.

    Boonen has had a few seasons who are pretty close to what Cancellera has achieved this year. Hell, in some of those years Boonen actually managed to win a race :wink:

    I can see Cancellara winning LBL or Lombardia. He's shown his bone fides
    with the silver medal in Beijing (12,000' of climbing 152 miles ) ahead of Kolobnev, Schleck, Gesink, Evans, and Bettini.
    He was 5th in the 2009 WC RR (15,000' of climbing over 162 miles) ahead of Gilbert, Cunego, Valverde on a course comparable.

    These courses are comparable to LBL and Lombardia.
    Infinite diversity, infinte variations
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    iainf72 wrote:
    Moontrane wrote:

    Overall, though, PG has only one unique monument to FC's three. I hope that PG gets two more so we can see a race within the season(s) to see who gets their fourth first. (Say those last two words fast three times!)

    I can see PG winning Flanders, or MSR, or LBL or even Roubaix.

    Can't see Cancellera ever winning LBL or Lombardy.

    Boonen has had a few seasons who are pretty close to what Cancellera has achieved this year. Hell, in some of those years Boonen actually managed to win a race :wink:

    Boonen winning? Who'd have thought!
    _
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    edited April 2011
    Moontrane wrote:
    I can see Cancellara winning LBL or Lombardia. He's shown his bone fides
    with the silver medal in Beijing (12,000' of climbing 152 miles ) ahead of Kolobnev, Schleck, Gesink, Evans, and Bettini.
    He was 5th in the 2009 WC RR (15,000' of climbing over 162 miles) ahead of Gilbert, Cunego, Valverde on a course comparable.

    These courses are comparable to LBL and Lombardia.

    But their not. Most of the climibing in Liege and Lombardy comes at the end of the race whereas the Worlds and Olympics it's spread out over the entire race, due to it being a circuit. The pace is always much higher at the end of a race.

    Mind you, if Jens Voigt can finish 2nd at Liege?
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,571
    Moontrane wrote:

    I can see Cancellara winning LBL or Lombardia. He's shown his bone fides
    with the silver medal in Beijing (12,000' of climbing 152 miles ) ahead of Kolobnev, Schleck, Gesink, Evans, and Bettini.
    He was 5th in the 2009 WC RR (15,000' of climbing over 162 miles) ahead of Gilbert, Cunego, Valverde on a course comparable.

    These courses are comparable to LBL and Lombardia.

    No they're not, for a start both were circuit races which are very different from point to point courses. The Beijing course had one steady climb never steeper than about 6%, the Mendrisio course had two short climbs of approx 1.5-2kms long, neither of which are really comparable to the hills on either the Liege or Lombardy courses. Liege has a mix of short steep climbs interspersed with longer, steadier climbs whereas Lombardy offers a series of 5-10 km climbs that vary in gradient but can be as steep as 10%.

    Cancellara is too heavy to win either so unless he pulls off the very tricky challenge of losing weight whilst retaining power, he'll never win either.
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    Also aren't those totals of feet climbed similar to a Tour mountain stage? Is Cancellara going to win one of those next?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    Also aren't those totals of feet climbed similar to a Tour mountain stage? Is Cancellara going to win one of those next?

    Just because there's the same total height climbed, the efforts required to stay near the front of a Mountain stage in the tour is very different.

    LBL has the same amount of height gained as a tour stage but different riders do well on it > mainly because it's not 45 minute solid effort uphill....

    I'd imagine we'd all be surprised by the total height gain in the Tour of Flanders, given who does well there.
    _
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    Also aren't those totals of feet climbed similar to a Tour mountain stage? Is Cancellara going to win one of those next?

    Just because there's the same total height climbed, the efforts required to stay near the front of a Mountain stage in the tour is very different.

    LBL has the same amount of height gained as a tour stage but different riders do well on it > mainly because it's not 45 minute solid effort uphill...

    Err, yes, that's what I was getting at?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,259
    Once they've both retired then ask who is the best. Currently I think Cancellara has the edge, but then he's older. For now let's say they're both bloody good.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    Also aren't those totals of feet climbed similar to a Tour mountain stage? Is Cancellara going to win one of those next?

    Just because there's the same total height climbed, the efforts required to stay near the front of a Mountain stage in the tour is very different.

    LBL has the same amount of height gained as a tour stage but different riders do well on it > mainly because it's not 45 minute solid effort uphill...

    Err, yes, that's what I was getting at?

    Then I'm agreeing with you! :wink:
    _
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Then I'm agreeing with you! :wink:

    Yeah? That's good then!

    :D
  • Moontrane
    Moontrane Posts: 233
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    Moontrane wrote:
    I can see Cancellara winning LBL or Lombardia. He's shown his bone fides
    with the silver medal in Beijing (12,000' of climbing 152 miles ) ahead of Kolobnev, Schleck, Gesink, Evans, and Bettini.
    He was 5th in the 2009 WC RR (15,000' of climbing over 162 miles) ahead of Gilbert, Cunego, Valverde on a course comparable.

    These courses are comparable to LBL and Lombardia.

    But their not. Most of the climibing in Liege and Lombardy comes at the end of the race whereas the Worlds and Olympics it's spread out over the entire race, due to it being a circuit. The pace is always much higher at the end of a race.

    Mind you, if Jens Voigt can finish 2nd at Liege?

    Cancellara has said that 2012 is when he'll first target his missing monuments. What the heck was this overweight northern classics dude doing at the finish of races with 12-15k' of climbing?

    Gilbert was fantastic in LBL - heck for the whole week! Now he's won or been on the podium for 4 monuments.

    BTW, RVV has a bit over a mile in elevation gain.
    Infinite diversity, infinte variations
  • OffTheBackAdam
    OffTheBackAdam Posts: 1,869
    Moontrane wrote:
    But who was the last rider to be on the podium for all three spring monuments in one season? Kelly? Methinks that's rarefied territory.
    Davide Rebellin, 2004.
    Kelly never won either the Amstel, or La Fleche.
    Remember that you are an Englishman and thus have won first prize in the lottery of life.
  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    I'm going to put some money on PG to win the Tour de France 2011.
    With this streak of form there is no one who can stop him as he showed the Schlecks to be just his play things.

    The year before last I was very impressed with his Italian end of year "Festival Week" wins plus the Paris-Tours event which saved a disappointing season and now he has developed into such an all round rider.
    There is nothing to stop him being the Number one ranked rider and his TDF win will secure it.
    That would settle any arguments on this thread.
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • P_Tucker
    P_Tucker Posts: 1,878
    deejay wrote:
    I'm going to put some money on PG to win the Tour de France 2011.

    I'll take that bet. How much?
  • Moontrane
    Moontrane Posts: 233
    OffTheBackAdam wrote:
    Moontrane wrote:
    But who was the last rider to be on the podium for all three spring monuments in one season? Kelly? Methinks that's rarefied territory.
    Davide Rebellin, 2004.
    Kelly never won either the Amstel, or La Fleche.

    Oops!

    The spring monuments are MSR, P-R, and the RVV. This renders your comment about Kelly moot.
    Infinite diversity, infinte variations
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    Moontrane wrote:
    OffTheBackAdam wrote:
    Moontrane wrote:
    But who was the last rider to be on the podium for all three spring monuments in one season? Kelly? Methinks that's rarefied territory.
    Davide Rebellin, 2004.
    Kelly never won either the Amstel, or La Fleche.

    Oops!

    The spring monuments are MSR, P-R, and the RVV. This renders your comment about Kelly moot.

    And Liege?
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,571
    Kelly was second in both MSR and the RVV and won both PR and LBL in 1984. He won Paris-Nice, the Criterium International and the Tour of the Basque Country that year too. :shock:
  • Garry H
    Garry H Posts: 6,639
    Moontrane wrote:
    OffTheBackAdam wrote:
    Moontrane wrote:
    But who was the last rider to be on the podium for all three spring monuments in one season? Kelly? Methinks that's rarefied territory.
    Davide Rebellin, 2004.
    Kelly never won either the Amstel, or La Fleche.

    Oops!

    The spring monuments are MSR, P-R, and the RVV. This renders your comment about Kelly moot.

    Dude, no use being pedantic when you can't get it right yourself. You could end up coming across as a bit of a T1T.
  • Moontrane
    Moontrane Posts: 233
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    Moontrane wrote:
    OffTheBackAdam wrote:
    Moontrane wrote:
    But who was the last rider to be on the podium for all three spring monuments in one season? Kelly? Methinks that's rarefied territory.
    Davide Rebellin, 2004.
    Kelly never won either the Amstel, or La Fleche.

    Oops!

    The spring monuments are MSR, P-R, and the RVV. This renders your comment about Kelly moot.

    And Liege?

    Correct, thanks. l meant the first 3 monumnets.
    Infinite diversity, infinte variations
  • Moontrane
    Moontrane Posts: 233
    Garry H wrote:
    Moontrane wrote:
    OffTheBackAdam wrote:
    Moontrane wrote:
    But who was the last rider to be on the podium for all three spring monuments in one season? Kelly? Methinks that's rarefied territory.
    Davide Rebellin, 2004.
    Kelly never won either the Amstel, or La Fleche.

    Oops!

    The spring monuments are MSR, P-R, and the RVV. This renders your comment about Kelly moot.

    Dude, no use being pedantic when you can't get it right yourself. You could end up coming across as a bit of a T1T.

    Thanks for capitalizing my name for the day! :oops:
    Infinite diversity, infinte variations

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