braking

tank121

Going back to whenci was a kid i was always told not to use the front brake- avoisd going over the handle bars. Am i correct in saying in mtb you do? The best way to do it is pull it on and off repeatadly?

Currently have Giant mph disc brakes soon to change to avid

nicklouse

your front brake is for braking.

the rear is for skidding.

Rear for steering and fine control.

Alex

Ideally you need to use both brakes, but understand that whilst the back brake will give you a control of your speed or slow you down gradually, there is too little weight over the rear of the bike for it to stop or slow you quickly.

In the perfect world, 100% of the braking is done on the front brake, as if maximum braking force is applied without locking up, the rear wheel will not be on the ground (will have no weight over it)

Progressive application of the front brake is what is required. Make sure you brake in a straight line, and try to avoid locking up, which damages the trail.

PXR5

Most important things I've read on here are to remember

1. The tyres can only give you so much grip at any one time, so as Alex says brake in a straight line if you can, braking as you turn a corner is going to be much less effective and either skid or loose it completely.

2. When you brake do it like you mean it and actually shed some speed, don't just dab lightly on the brakes for no real reason

scarbs85

Am I right in thinking you can keep the back brake on (feathering it, not locked up obviously) on downhills to control your speed, rather than using the front, hitting a rock, and doing a superman over the bars?

arthur_scrimshaw

scarbs85 wrote:

Am I right in thinking you can keep the back brake on (feathering it, not locked up obviously) on downhills to control your speed, rather than using the front, hitting a rock, and doing a superman over the bars?

I think this would lead to glazing of the pads (on disks obviously) I believe it's best to brake firmly and release in a cadence style, or best of all not brake at all.

Anonymous

scarbs85 wrote:

Am I right in thinking you can keep the back brake on (feathering it, not locked up obviously) on downhills to control your speed, rather than using the front, hitting a rock, and doing a superman over the bars?

Going over the bars means you've got your weight set up incorrectly. Front brake shouldn't do that.

RIDELINES

Try and use both front and back. The front brake should be the one to really reduce speed but don't grab. Progressive use of the front brake along with the back is your best bet for controlling your speed.

Look ahead and assess the trail and features, try not to brake in a panic and definately not when cornering. Sure you've all seen the braking bumps at trail centres. Not nice.

We're a mountain biking skills | coaching | lessons company. So a lesson would put you right on when to brake and, crucially, when not to brake. Along with a whole heap of other skills and techniques that would get you riding with great style!

Regardless, good luck with your riding ....

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Atz

Also, as well as being too far forward causing issues, so can being too far back. Point in case we saw a bloke hanging right off the bike on a relatively mild downhill run and sure enough, he hit a root that threw the bike up and he went over onto his backside and back. Nice balanced position at all times.

clodhoppa74

also, braking while turning will try and 'right' the bike to vertical, which isn't helpful mid corner lean.

i bought the 'dirtschool' dvd last year on the reccomendation of people on here, and while it's not a substitute for someone actually seeing what you're doing and tutoring you, it's a damn good stop gap. improved my riding no end.

diy

For stopping as quickly as possibly there is no reason why you should not use the technique that motorcyclists use.

1 front on
2 back on
3 more front
4 less back
and as you come to a stop
5 less front.

for long down hills its ok to switch front to rear and back to let your brakes cool as you drop.

braking is one of the 3 forces (the other 2 are accelerating and cornering) that demand grip from a tyre (which is usually finite). So if you try to brake and steer, you are splitting max grip between 2.

Also remember for corners, slow in = fast out, i.e. do your braking up front, make the turn and you can drive out. You can also use the rear to back the bike around a turn (its the equivalent of a handbrake turn on a Front WD rally car)

Anonymous

diy, you're smoking some strong sh*t.
The "3 forces" you describe, are actually all the same "force", but in a different direction.
Grip on a tyre is "usually" finite? Describe just ONE scenario where it isn't.
Why can only a front wheel drive rally car do a handbrake turn?

And finally, braking with the rear just isn't as effective. It cannot possibly BE as effective.

diy

The "3 forces" you describe, are actually all the same "force", but in a different direction.

- I don't disagree (longitudinal and lateral)

Grip on a tyre is "usually" finite? Describe just ONE scenario where it isn't.

here are three:
1) mass on the tyre - as the weight shifts forward the load on the tyre increases, causing the contact patch to increase. = increase in grip and vice a versa, which is why you back off the brakes on an e-stop on a big motorcycle to avoid ending up on your arse at the last moment.
2) temperature - a tyre will heat up under hard braking and will increase and reduce the grip you get as result (more relevant to racing motorbikes).
3) angle of lean - again less applicable to bicycles, but different tyres have different grip profiles, so depending on your angle of lean you have more/less contact or grip. Same for dual tread compound - as above.

as an example certain motorcycle tyres are easier to slide in the wet when upright than they are going around corners. This is due to the tread compound and tyre profile.

max grip is usually somewhere in the middle of the braking phase, min grip is at the start and end.

Why can only a front wheel drive rally car do a handbrake turn?

Because you (prefer to) use the accelerator on a rear wheel drive car.

And finally, braking with the rear just isn't as effective. It cannot possibly BE as effective.

- are you saying 100% front will always be better than say 90% front 10% rear?
not quite sure I understand the point you are making?

Deputy Dawg

yeehaamcgee wrote:

And finally, braking with the rear just isn't as effective. It cannot possibly BE as effective.

You've obviously never gone down a hill backwards.

cooldad

diy wrote:

Because you (prefer to) use the accelerator on a rear wheel drive car.

You use the accelerator to do a handbrake turn?

Really?

FunBus

i think what DIY means is that you dont hand brake turn in a rear wheel drive car at all - you accelerate and slide the back end round.

Granted, that's not always the case on extremely sharp bends and also granted, it bares very little relevance in this conversation..........

diy

just trying the create the mental image of steering around a corner with the rear brake. And not to confuse it with backing it in.

Anonymous

DIY, I think you've misunderstood the word "finite". What you are saying is that there is infinite grip on tyres under some conditions.

Handbrake turns work in rear wheel or 4 wheel drive cars too, the handbrake can initialise a turn far quicker than the throttle. It's a very different method, and use, to a powerslide.

cooldad

FunBus wrote:

i think what DIY means is that you dont hand brake turn in a rear wheel drive car at all - you accelerate and slide the back end round.

Granted, that's not always the case on extremely sharp bends and also granted, it bares very little relevance in this conversation..........

Balls I used to have a Beetle that did amazing handbrake turns, rear wheel drive and rear engine.
Handbrake used for very tight turns. Ask any rally driver. (BITD anyway - probably have some new fangled gizmo thesedays. Bah humbug.)

diy

I'm beginning to regret the analogy. :roll:

to clarify you can use the rear brake on a bicycle to effect over steer to get you around a bend quicker by sliding the rear.

My experience of rally driving is limited to a couple of course with the Phil Price school in wales where he tought mrs diy how to power slide and do the Scandinavian flick much to the annoyance of all the proper wannabe rally drivers who were also on the course.

She later confessed that they cheated.

Anonymous

cooldad wrote:

FunBus wrote:

(BITD anyway - probably have some new fangled gizmo thesedays. Bah humbug.)

Nope, the only difference on modern world rally cars is that the drive to the rear wheels is disengaged when the handbrake is pulled.
I believe up to and including last year, the torsen diffs, and various active differential systems negated that need, and it just worked, but the transmissions have been virtually standardised this year.

Atz

yeah... slide the rear, ruin the trails, who's to care? If you're racing DH, fair enough but at some point (unless you're the trail builder) you need to consider other riders

cooldad

Now you've ruined my fun, can't disagree any more.

Anonymous

cooldad wrote:

Now you've ruined my fun, can't disagree any more.

Of course you can

diy

saves using the clutch, which previously was needed to avoid stalling.

Anonymous

Oh give it up you utter cock.

mak3m

back to the op yes im sure i was told never to use the front brake much when i was a kid, which made me confused on why the front rotor was bigger on the front wheel on a lot of set ups :oops:

damn teachers what do they know, does this render my cycle proficiency certificate void

Anonymous

I think it means your teacher was a mong. We were taught to brake with the front unless we were on very very slippery ground, which seems like sound advice to kids.
My father also taught me before then to use the front, when I was learning. And hell, my first bike that I rode without stabilisers only had a front brake!

Mental Mickey

I often use to read people saying that you should always stay off the front brake when riding through anything technical like some bumpy rocks, steep trails but found out this was nonsense as most of the breaking power is in the front, it's about learning how much you can feather the brakes and AT THE RIGHT TIMES on a trail so that you also know WHEN TO LEAVE OFF THEM, and knowing how much you can apply them so that the wheels keep turning the right amount without locking up.


I was always a bit scared to use my front brake as I've panicked many times, locked up and gone over the bars, I found it useful to practice using the front by riding down non technical hills and using the front brake only all the time, to get use to how much you pressure you can apply, then I practised a front brake only method on technical singletrack, I would say it helped me a lot in getting over that fear.

97th choice

yeehaamcgee wrote:

DIY, I think you've misunderstood the word "finite". What you are saying is that there is infinite grip on tyres under some conditions.

I think there's a pedants shield you're trying to win. He obviously used inaccurate terminolgy but that doesn't take away from the points he was trying to make.