Tubeless vs. tubes - the weighty truth please

njee20

Northwind +1, well said.

Kev, so you're suggesting that when riding in snow and ice you should make your suspension softer, rather than reduce tyre pressure? I know which I'd be doing to gain more grip, and I wouldn't be riding around with 40psi in my tyres.

kevolution

I'm not trying to come across as arrogant, in fact, far from it.
I'm suggesting that riders run lower pressures to gain performace advantages where suspension tweaks would give better results in some cases.( not insisting that is the case, as it may seem to some)
It's just the concise nature of forum posts only allows for a small window to put a few points across and not for in depth analisys of the subject.

The 40psi example was to demonstrate that tyre pressure is relative to performance of the suspension and not a recommendation for all riders.

I will stand by my comment that tyre manufacturers have more R&D data disproving the effective performance of standard tyres set up tubeless than tubeless compatible versions. And I'd still advise against using this method.
I'll answer some of the questions posted from quotes in my next post.

kevolution

supersonic wrote:

People will have different opinions! It is a forum. And you are certainly not always right, nobody is.

I don't profess to be always right, I'm just giving my opinion on any given subject.
I'm quite happy to take criticism and discuss any subject openly.
I used to post here as Skyliner, but since I left the Glyncorrwg shop, I changed my forum ID. I have been guilty of a bit of trolling while i was an anonymous user under my current ID, but I'm being serious about this subject.
It's kind of a pet hate of mine, so my opinions are strong on this subject.
But I never intended to come across as arrogant.
That would mean I'd have to buy an Audi and ride a Specialized Enduro.(joke)

pastey_boy

ive got a mate called kenny kenda, his grandfather actually invented tyres in the late 70's, so i think ive got more than enough insider knowledge to make a comment here. according to kenny ,tubeless tyres are on average up to 9 times rounder thus reducing rotation latency. he showed me a pie chart to back this incredible data up. obviously tubes can amplify the torsional regression of the wheel but compared to tubes its a drop in the ocean im afraid. i could go on all night quoting hard scientific fact from my man in the rubber game but i dont want to confuse you all with information your uneducated minds would struggle to digest.

kevolution

Northwind.
It's easier to address your questions as numbered statements in reply to the quotes.
1. I'm not jumping to conclusions, im working from over 20 years experience and data from tyre and suspension companies.
2. Tyre deformation is part of the suspension system whether you factor it into your setup or not. I just tried to make riders aware of that fact.
3. Tyres are designed to perform within certain parameters. If you step outside of these parameters, the tyre's performance will be compromised.
If you run a 2.35 tyre up front @ 20 psi when you load it heavily into a corner it'll fold and spit you off the bike.
I've exprienced this after a slow puncture, it's not a nice way to crash.
Tyre companies do R&D with far better riders than you and I , They set the recommendations for use. Why would we ignore them?
It does't make sense to do so to me.
Njee, for the record, I'd run much narrower 1.8 spiked tyres with softer suspension settings for snow.
It works, I've done it at LLandegla last March.
All the guys with high vol low pressure tyres were slipping around like Bambi on ice.

I fell on fewer occasions. But I still stacked a few times.

Northwind

kevolution wrote:

I'm suggesting that riders run lower pressures to gain performace advantages where suspension tweaks would give better results in some cases.( not insisting that is the case, as it may seem to some)

Actually no, that's not what you said at all- you said "by definition, you are doing just that."- no room to maneuvre there. Now if you want to retract that or rephrase it, then you can do that but it's pretty weak to just change your script without acknowledging it.

kevolution wrote:

I will stand by my comment that tyre manufacturers have more R&D data disproving the effective performance of standard tyres set up tubeless than tubeless compatible versions.

But then this comes back to what I was saying- what's your definition of performance? How do you "disprove" performance? And how does this work when a rider's idea of what's best isn't the same as the manufacturer's? Since I think we can agree there's no one "best".

From my own experience, let's look at Kenda's 2.1 DTC Nevegal, I run the standard version tubeless and I've run the UST one in the past. Now the UST one brought no riding advantage to the table- it's heavier, and just a little stiffer in the sidewalls, but otherwise rides much the same. It ought to be more puncture-resistant though in practice I've never had an issue with the standard ones, so, for me personally no benefit there to date. And it ought to mount and seal more easily but again, I've had no issue with the standard ones, they go on very easily.

So what do Kenda know that I don't, that means I'm doing it wrong? The only performance differences I've ever come across were in favour of using the standard version tyre.

kevolution wrote:

I'm not jumping to conclusions, im working from over 20 years experience and data from tyre and suspension companies.

You misunderstand. I've never said you're jumping to conclusions about tyres. You're jumping to conclusions about riders. And you can't put a brain in a dyno.

kevolution wrote:

If you run a 2.35 tyre up front @ 20 psi when you load it heavily into a corner it'll fold and spit you off the bike.

I run 20-25psi as standard, normally in 2.35 tyres on wide rims(Nevegals and Clutches currently, and occasionally a 2.5 Highroller which of course is actually a 2.35)... did so with tubes, now do so with tubeless and with tubes, never once has it folded and spat me off the bike. Somehow I survive! I

kevolution

That's some primo trolling PB. Props 2 U. lol

supersonic

I knew who you were lol ;-)

Schwalbe have produced some interesting data on tyre pressures and rolling resistance: then onsite they recommend 30psi for 2.3 tyres, then very plainly state elsewhere that it is personal preference (your weight, terrain etc) then go on and say that you shouldn't run them too low as to prolong their life - so the whole gamut there!

I don't go too low as I hate the tyres squirming in corners. I think it is best for the rider to experiment and see what works best for them, keeping a careful eye on rim width, profiles and possible damage by going too low a pressure (or too high).

kevolution

Yes I did say that Northwind. As that is a fact.
The tyre deformation is part of the suspension system. Whether you choose to use it, abuse it or ignore it.

You are obvously one of those very gifted riders that has the ability to defy the laws of Physics.
Flat tyres fold over when you try to corner on them. FACT.
If you're going fast when this occurs, you get spat off the bike. (in my case at least)
If you have a method for defying gravity, please share it with the MTB community, and we'll all ride better.lol

kevolution

supersonic wrote:

I knew who you were lol ;-)
.[/quote)
Yeah, right!
Is that why you gave me such a hard time over the suspension thread?lol
I'm going to be a good boy now and go back to giving "industry recommended information" as I've just got back into "the industry".

supersonic

Lol.

A few of us work, or have worked in the industry - sometimes what they say is, well, just wrong ;-)

kevolution

Fairy Nuff, it's all tidy darts butt, as they do say down Afan way.

Do you want to call off the dog, or do I have to kill it?

Northwind

Pff. I'm forced to conclude you're intentionally misunderstanding, and trying to score points by misconstruing comments then "correcting" things I've never said. Ironically, at the same time insisting that you've never said things that you actually did. Which I'm sure is very amusing for you but for anyone who wants to actually have a discussion it's a bit offputting.

I'm off for the weekend to ride my bike with its dangerously flat tyres :roll: In the meantime, you win at the internet.

kevolution

That was never my intention my friend, but it's interesting that I also perceived that to be your intention. I am all too aware that there are no winners in internet discusssions,but I'm hoping that the information we collectively provided is of some benefit to other users.
I've enjoyed our conversation, and hope we can take part in many more in future.
Although we seem to differ in opinion on some subjects, I'm sure there's some common ground we can converse happily on in future.
Regards,
Kev.