Formula One

rick_chasey

I prefer Kers to DRS.

DRS is basically making a contest unfair for a very small amount of time > but when it is most critical.

At least KERS is the same for everyone, in theory.

EKE_38BPM

Seeing on-board footage of a car with KERS and DRS come up behind a non-KERSing car (or Red Bull as they are known) on the straight was amazing. The rate of acceleration was fantastic, even for Formula One.

Paul E

That's how the tyres used to be, There was a race I think Spain when mansell had to pit as his tyres were shot, he came out and he caught back upto senna and the battle they had was awesome (senna in the lotus)

Come to think of it I think it was 87 with flames from the exhaust on the downchanges.

DonDaddyD

DRS adds more speed than KERS. Not that they won't allow it but by the looks of things using DRS in anything but a straight would likely see the car lose grip/traction where as KERS doesn't affect the aerodynamics.

I like KERS, because I like technology and I like it when it can drip into the everyday car market.

EKE: I'd say the Renaults held off against DRS because they are arguably the third fastest cars on the grid this seasons with average drivers. Renault did say that with that car they were going to challenge for the champioship - but then their driver got injured and ruined that for them.

I'm not a fan of the tyres. I also reckon that by the end of the season all the championship challenging teams will have sussed the wear ratio's of the tyres so it'll come down to the fastest car (like last season) which means Vettel/Red Bull will win.

Give em all the same engine and let them modify it to a set budget and as long as the engine stays within performance/emissions guidelines.

nich

I'm not too fussed about KERS and DRS, Hamilton 'n Webber both did lots of overtakes out of the DRS zone, and Webber didn't even have KERS. It's still about the best drivers and the best cars, and of course the tyres.

The problem with tyres, as DDD says, the teams are now figuring them out, which means they'll probably end up on the same strategies come Turkey.

EKE_38BPM

The rules keep changing because the blokes with the brains get all clever and work out how to exploit them. Colin Chapman said something along the lines of "Read the rules twice. Once to find out what you are not allowed to do and again to see what you can get away with."
The teams will work out the best way to use the tyres, thats a given. No matter what tyres they have to use, they will work out how to use them to their (the team's) best advantage. I think that its better that the tyres have a finite optimal window and then fall off badly rather than going on and on and on. Formula One is much more processional when that happens.

DRS makes for artificial overtakes, but in Formula One aerodynamics is such a major factor that the cars leave massive dirty wakes that make it difficult for another car to follow closely. Redress the balance between aero grip and mechanical grip and, hopefully, we can get back to the close racing of the 60s, 70s and early 80s. I'd love to see the cars with the MASSIVE tyres of yesteryear and less down force.

I wonder why KERS was limited to 7 seconds per lap?
Electric KERS technology will be used by the motor industry to carry on making unnecessarily big cars rather than smaller, lighter, more fuel efficient cars. Lexus 430h anyone?

rick_chasey

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I wonder why KERS was limited to 7 seconds per lap?
Electric KERS technology will be used by the motor industry to carry on making unnecessarily big cars rather than smaller, lighter, more fuel efficient cars. Lexus 430h anyone?

I read somewhere that the technology involved in F1 KERS would not ever be applicable to normal road cars because of the way it works.

Gazzaputt

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Speaking of BTCC - did anyone see the Donington races??? :shock: :shock: :shock:

Bloodyhellfire there was some spectacular driving going on there! Commentator comments such as "will they make it to the end?" shortly followed by "Oh No! there they go!!!" as there was yet another coming together.

Love it.

Bloody hell is BTCC still going?

I used to go and watch at Brands in the 90s when you have the Alfa 155, Ford Mondeo and Audi A4 battling it out. John Cleland, Andy Rouse, Paul Radisich , Gabrieli Tarquin and Frank Biela. Remember Volvo entering their 850 estate and it was quite quick.

EKE_38BPM

Gazzaputt wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Speaking of BTCC - did anyone see the Donington races??? :shock: :shock: :shock:

Bloodyhellfire there was some spectacular driving going on there! Commentator comments such as "will they make it to the end?" shortly followed by "Oh No! there they go!!!" as there was yet another coming together.

Love it.

Bloody hell is BTCC still going?

I used to go and watch at Brands in the 90s when you have the Alfa 155, Ford Mondeo and Audi A4 battling it out. John Cleland, Andy Rouse, Paul Radisich , Gabrielli Tarquini and Frank Biela. Remember Volvo entering their 850 estate and it was quite quick.

Thats my favourite BTCC era (or Saloon Cars as they were known then). I particularly remember the Ecurie Ecosse Vauxhall Cavaliers (mainly for aural and asthetic reasons rather than performance/results).
The cars were known as Super Touring cars and (like F1 at about the same time) money was no object. Loads of manufacturer cars/teams (you missed out the Mazda Xedos 6/9, BMW 318i, Renault Laguna and the Nissan Primera) and good coverage on TV.
I think Mansell's crash was the end of that era.
Then the manufacturers began pulling out, TV coverage dwindled and it all got a bit pants, but it seems to be on the up again.

Kieran_Burns

Gazzaputt wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Speaking of BTCC - did anyone see the Donington races??? :shock: :shock: :shock:

Bloodyhellfire there was some spectacular driving going on there! Commentator comments such as "will they make it to the end?" shortly followed by "Oh No! there they go!!!" as there was yet another coming together.

Love it.

Bloody hell is BTCC still going?

I used to go and watch at Brands in the 90s when you have the Alfa 155, Ford Mondeo and Audi A4 battling it out. John Cleland, Andy Rouse, Paul Radisich , Gabrieli Tarquin and Frank Biela. Remember Volvo entering their 850 estate and it was quite quick.

Ooooh yes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2losyrki0w

about 2 miles from where I live 8)

That car was running in the NEXT race and finished 6th. This was not really due to Plato's skill more to the fact that everyone else in front was hell bent on killing each other!

nation

The Supertouring era of the BTCC came to an end to because it ceased to be decent value for the manufacturers, and was prohibitively expensive for the independent teams. The cars were basically purpose-built silhouette racers by the time Nissan were dominating.

The new rules are much closer to a production series and much less expensive, which has got the manufacturers interested again. It's the same thing that happened with the decline and rebirth of DTM in Germany.

ruswilks

The tyres this season have led to more overtakes because running different tyre strategies is much more feasible than last year. It's no different to when we had refuelling where light cars overtook heavy cars who were making less stops.

At too many races last year a set of hard tyres could go near enough race distance, so you either started on softs and pitted once they had gone off and stayed on hards until the end, or started on hards and changes to softs for the last third/quarter of the race. Also, the performance difference between compounds was seemingly closer than this year so although softs were quicker, it wasn't as big a factor.

I see DRS as a stop gap until ground-effect aero is allowed again, bodywork based aero is always going to produce a large amount of turbulence which the car behind can do nothing about. DRS gives the following driver a chance to overcome this. The FIA need to make sure DRS gives a driver the chance to get alongside his opponent at the next braking zone so the overtake could be possible, but not make it such a big advantage that he has completed the overtake half way down the straight.

I see little benefit to KERS when it is so restricted and everyone has the same system to use. The FIA should open up the regulations so teams can develop/buy in systems which offer differing amounts of power or duration - 10% more power for 6.6 seconds a lap is not that useful if your opponents all have exactly the same.

tobermory

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Group B. When cars were cars and spectators were nuts!

The flame spitting 600hp monsters the fun was getting so close they just brushed you or you jumped at the last minute,sadly the death of henri toivonen saw them banned

tobermory

seen the dtm at nurburgring great racing wheel to wheel action and big crowds,and when the crowds have gone pay up and go round the nordsclife magic but take spare pants.

Mr Plum

EKE_38BPM wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Love F1 but I'm a new fan, only got into when Hamilton came onto the scene. My interest in the sport transcends him, however.

Ah, one of these Johnny-Come-Latelys who doesn't remember when Williams were winners, the cars were so powerful that all that the enginers could say was "Well, the dyno goes up to 1500BHP and we were off the scale" and money was no object.

Ah well, we all have to start somewhere and its true to say that the Schumacher years were a bit dull.
BTW, the cars today only make around 900 with KERS (if that much).

I miss the days when F1 cars were the lightest, fastest, most powerful cars in motor racing, but it looks like the FIA finally have the rules about right (until the engineers get all clever and the balance is lost again).

They're talking about the 2013 regs being changed to 4 cylinder turbo engines. Doubt it will happen though...

Paul E

Mr Plum wrote:

They're talking about the 2013 regs being changed to 4 cylinder turbo engines. Doubt it will happen though...

It's what they had upto 1988 albeit they could also run V6's not just 4cyl inlines and they were 1.5 litre not 1.6

The BMW turbo engine from back then was a 4 cyl inline 4 and they managed to extract 100 bhp from each cubic centimetre of engine capacity, ie 1500bhp from 1500cc, that's still mind blowing.

The racing back then could be pretty mad, because the driver could alter the boost in the cockpit which increased power but hammered the full consumption and the turbo lag the engines had made them very tricky to drive.

tobermory

somehow i cannot see the FIA allowing turbo charged cars to reach 1500hp it would be good though Honda put their;s on the dyno and it hit 1500 hp but thats as muchas the dyno would read but Martin Brundle said it just kept on going so they have no idea what it's output was all from a 1-5 litre 4 cyl turbo engine.Bring back classic tracks watkins glen,ostereichring,kyalami and jacapagua and zandvoort,and dump hungary bahrain and dubai

redvee

For those that missed Donnington yesterday, the highlights are on ITV4 tomorow from 09:30.

Mr_Cellophane

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Seeing on-board footage of a car with KERS and DRS come up behind a non-KERSing car (or Red Bull as they are known) on the straight was amazing. The rate of acceleration was fantastic, even for Formula One.

That's not quite true as Red Bull have KERS, it just doesn't work very well/at all :roll: So they have all the weight disadvantage and none of the power advantage. I wonder if they could strip it out as it never seems to work all the way through a race.

The Rookie

OptimisticBiker wrote:

I love motorsport in all forms... I was that mad spectator standing for days watching the rally cars in the Forest of Dean in the heydays of the Group B WRC cars (Audi Quattro, Metro 6R4).

Forest of Dean, Brookes in a Chevette, Vatanen, Blomquvist and Clarke in Escorts and the Chequered Flag Stratos, life never got any better, apart frommamybe the 85 RAC when the 6R4's flattered to decieve!

If you ever had the misfortune to meet Brookes though, he was frankly a bumptious sh!t, the mechanics at RED didn't overly like him either (1991 RAC - Texaco Cossie 4x4).

I still have the rear spoiler off McRae's 1989 3 door Cosworth after he rolled in in Sweet Lamb on the Welsh, I also have a near complete front wing off a Renault Clio Maxi.

Simon

Mr Plum

Mr_Cellophane wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Seeing on-board footage of a car with KERS and DRS come up behind a non-KERSing car (or Red Bull as they are known) on the straight was amazing. The rate of acceleration was fantastic, even for Formula One.

That's not quite true as Red Bull have KERS, it just doesn't work very well/at all :roll: So they have all the weight disadvantage and none of the power advantage. I wonder if they could strip it out as it never seems to work all the way through a race.

That's a bit of a misnomer. There is no weight disadvantage; all cars have to weigh in at 640kg, with or without KERS.

Simontheintrepid

A confession

I have not been for my Sunday morning 50 mile training rides for the last two weeks. I shall be justly punished by being unfit in the next sportive. Glad F1's heading to Europe now!

Worth it anyway to see a great Hamilton win and especially to see Coulthard's discomfort when the McLaren guys made him wear the Rocket Red! Although Webbo's performance scares the hell out of me, he wasn't even making any progress until the 20-something-th lap (yes hard tyres, I know).

Exciting though it was I maintain it's too artificial now. DRS is a band aid fix for a more inherent problem that should have been figured out years ago, too much posturing and denial going on. Still, love it and here's to the downfall of the fizzy drink cars!

@EKE_38BPM - This is super pedantry, but Williams didn't ever race flywheel KERS in F1, although it did do this in a Porsche: http://www.williamshybridpower.com/news/36-press-releases/121-hybrid-porsche-comes-close-to-victory-in-the-nuerburgring-24hrs It might make a debut this year or next. I hope so as it sounds awesome.

redvee

1 o'clock starts do make a lot of differnece to my sunday riding but this I found on Twitter might make F1 bad.

Dan Lobb
Blimey, Sky News reporting that News Corp might be sniffing round F1 - that could be a huge deal!

Hope this falls through.

EKE_38BPM

I've heard that part of the Concorde agreement (rules of F1) is that it must be on a free to air channel.
I think the BBC do a great job with F1 (and the theme tune* doesn't hurt) so I would hate for them to lose it. Now that they have Martin Brundle and David Coulthard commentating and Jake Humphrey presenting they have a good team. All they have to do is get rid of Eddie Jordan and it will be pretty damn near perfect.
If News Corp do get it (and I really hope they don't) they could do much worse than taking the BBC's presenting team over.

*I know we all know it, but its always nice to hear it again.

redvee

Think News Corp are after the ownership of F1, then maybe change the concorde agreement later.

EKE_38BPM

Oh, ownership.

Now I'm scared.

redvee

Google news corp F1, plenty of results.

EKE_38BPM

Now I'm really scared. I can see no good coming of this.
Ah well, you know what they say, the only thing constant is change.


edit:
I've just gone onto news.sky and started watching a video. Before the video started it showed an advert (I hate ads before I can see a video). The shape of things to come?
Yes, I know F1 is full of sponsorship and track-side ads, but I think News Corp will take it to a whole new level.
I hated when ITV had ads during the races.

The Rookie

Mr Plum wrote:

Mr_Cellophane wrote:

they have all the weight disadvantage and none of the power advantage. I wonder if they could strip it out as it never seems to work all the way through a race.

That's a bit of a misnomer. There is no weight disadvantage; all cars have to weigh in at 640kg, with or without KERS.

It is slightly, but if you take out the circa 30Kg of Kers you can add the ballast low don in the middle not towards the rear and higher up where the KERS stuff often has to be.

KERS (as F1 uses it) won't make it into road cars until the battery technology can accept that sort of charge rate without reducing battery life by crazy amounts, most road Hybrids have to severely limit chare rates (at the expence of fuel economy) to give an acceptable battery life.

Simon

rick_chasey

Mr Plum wrote:

Mr_Cellophane wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Seeing on-board footage of a car with KERS and DRS come up behind a non-KERSing car (or Red Bull as they are known) on the straight was amazing. The rate of acceleration was fantastic, even for Formula One.

That's not quite true as Red Bull have KERS, it just doesn't work very well/at all :roll: So they have all the weight disadvantage and none of the power advantage. I wonder if they could strip it out as it never seems to work all the way through a race.

That's a bit of a misnomer. There is no weight disadvantage; all cars have to weigh in at 640kg, with or without KERS.

But without KERS you can choose where you want to put the remaining weight for improved handelling.