Deals vs Doping

Yellow Peril

Anyone watching today's Brabantse-Pijl will have seen a discussion between Leukemans and Gilbert that suggested a carve up of the result between the two riders. There was even a token sprint for the line. We know it goes on remember Mr "no more gifts" ?

In view of the amount of anti-doping discussions that arise on the forum are there any views on the "honourability" of striking a deal for a result? Are the fans not short changed by such deals? Is it any better or worse than doping? Any views?

rick_chasey

They're not mutually exclusive occurances.

I think they rarely happen in the level of cycling which we watch.

The steaks are too high.

As are the stakes....

Down the Road

Buying a race has ALWAYS been acceptable and has gone on since the turn of the 19th century.

Selling one is a no-no.

If anyone bets on a sport where the participants can talk he deserves to lose his dough.

TheBigBean

I think I remember reading in Roche's biography how annoyed he was at one Criterium where some of the cyclists actually thought it was a race, and they had a chance to win, rather than fixing it for Kelly. He was outraged by this, but noted Paul Sherwin was being thoroughly reasonable and supported him all the way.

rick_chasey

^^ Same story was in rough ride too...

pb21

Why would Gilbert buy this race?

Why would Leukemans sell?

Gilbert doesnt need this win as much as Leukemans.

Yellow Peril

But doesn't it make the sport in some ways as ridiculous as professional wrestling?

I went to Ghent for the six day last year...

(I had a reat time though!)

ozzzyosborn206

yeah, if a good amateur tried to, or even won a post tour crit they would be saying goodbye to ever landing a pro contract

RichN95.

Yellow Peril wrote:

Anyone watching today's Brabantse-Pijl will have seen a discussion between Leukemans and Gilbert that suggested a carve up of the result between the two riders. There was even a token sprint for the line. We know it goes on remember Mr "no more gifts" ?

In view of the amount of anti-doping discussions that arise on the forum are there any views on the "honourability" of striking a deal for a result? Are the fans not short changed by such deals? Is it any better or worse than doping? Any views?

The deal might have been more along the lines of

"Look, this isn't a big race in the grand scheme of things and we've both got a big race at the weekend. How about we don't wear ourselves out attacking each other and just sort it out in the last 500m. Deal?",

rather than "How much money do you want?"

Yellow Peril

It could have been that but such was the lead out that Leukemans gave Gilbert it would have made even Cav blush.

I hope you're right though.

RichN95.

Yellow Peril wrote:

It could have been that but such was the lead out that Leukemans gave Gilbert it would have made even Cav blush.

I hope you're right though.

I don't think it happens between big name riders these days. Back in the olden days a rider would buy a race to help boost his contract, which would have been fairly meagre pay.

Gilbert, on the other hand, is a millionaire who lives in Monaco. (And Leukemans will be rich too).

Tom Butcher

I'm sure I read/heard somewhere the other day that Deignan had said Kreuziger offered to buy a race from him - think it was probably the 2009 Vuelta stage where they were both clear coming into the finish.

edit - found it - it's the Bill Strickland interview on Podium Cafe

P_Tucker

I sold a KOM prime once. It was awesome, I felt so PRO.

Tom Butcher

Btw if 79 of you are ever in the same road race as me I'd gladly split the winnings if you want to sell.

Tom Butcher

Just watched the last K on youtube - can't see how that's an obvious carve up at all - hardly a lead out he goes for the corner first which is relatively close to the finish - might not have worked but it made some sense.

rick_chasey

Anything I said about selling a race in the Pijl thread was with my tongue firmly stuck in my cheek.

jerry3571

Just watched the youtube of this race and a very strange stand off before the sprint. Very odd??

It's not just cash that's traded, it's favours as well.
An example of a Yellow Jersey holder lets a lone rider go up the road and keeps the pace slow enough for the escapee to stay away. The next day a rider or two from the day before's stage winner's Team are found helping the pace for the Yellow Jersey holder. A deal was done between Managers which was like- I let you win today and tomorrow you give me a couple of your guys to help out with the pace making.
LA was not much good at this unlike Indurain who gave stages away so that favours could be called in at certain tricky times. i remember Roche being angry as indurain was asking for favours on one particular occassion.
I do also wonder if there is any input by the criminal world in betting arrangements. :?

-Jerry

rick_chasey

Surprised to see GIlbert saying they both knew he had a faster sprint - I had Leukemans down as someone with 2nd/3rd line sprinter speed.

afx237vi

Rick Chasey wrote:

Anything I said about selling a race in the Pijl thread was with my tongue firmly stuck in my cheek.

Me too, but I think that whenever there are two riders contesting for a win, there's always going to be a certain amount of speculation about deals being made. It's what makes cycling interesting... like in a stage-race where one rider is going for the GC and one is only after a stage win. If they arrange for the stage-hunter to keep riding hard in exhange for the win, is that a fix or is tactical astuteness? I guess it depends which one you bet on.

jerry3571

This might also mean that if Leukemans led Gilbert out in a form of a pact then it could be that Gilbert will not chase down Leukemans at the weekend race. Possible??

-Jerry

disgruntledgoat

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

yeah, if a good amateur tried to, or even won a post tour crit they would be saying goodbye to ever landing a pro contract

Except the young Hinault who used to use exactly that as a method to cut himself in on the carve up!

Yellow Peril

Tom Butcher wrote:

Just watched the last K on youtube - can't see how that's an obvious carve up at all - hardly a lead out he goes for the corner first which is relatively close to the finish - might not have worked but it made some sense.

thge discussion if I recall correctly took place about 7k out. From then on it appears to me that Leukemans does the lion's share of the work. I would have thought that he may have "requested" more assistance from Gilbert.

andyp

jerry3571 wrote:

This might also mean that if Leukemans led Gilbert out in a form of a pact then it could be that Gilbert will not chase down Leukemans at the weekend race. Possible??

-Jerry

Doubtful, you do deals on small races, not the larger ones.

Tom Butcher

Yellow Peril wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

Just watched the last K on youtube - can't see how that's an obvious carve up at all - hardly a lead out he goes for the corner first which is relatively close to the finish - might not have worked but it made some sense.

thge discussion if I recall correctly took place about 7k out. From then on it appears to me that Leukemans does the lion's share of the work. I would have thought that he may have "requested" more assistance from Gilbert.

Ah well I didn't see the discussion then - just looking at the finish though it didn't look too out of the ordinary to me. Who knows - it goes on but I've no idea how much and I'd have thought two riders at that level wouldn't need to but with Gilbert saying that he'd like Leukemans back at Lotto I suppose it's possible there is some kind of offer involving that.

CyclingBantam

I must admit I don't particually mind it, certainly in the circumstances like a stage race where the leader lets a small break go up the road in order for favours to be called in later.

I am not eloquent enough to say whay I don't mind it in Cycling but would in other sports but I just find it is different to normal 'match fixing'. Like the monkey said, it is what makes cycling interesting, all the sub plots.

cswebbo

It will be interesting to see what team Leukemans is riding for next year.

Bronzie

While getting boxed in at the post-race media scrum, one journalist bluntly asked Leukemans what the agreed price had been for his co-operation in the break with Gilbert. Leukemans did not deny or comment the allegation, even though Gilbert claimed they were talking about the weather.

The combination of Leukemans' attitude and a possible financial bonus could explain the co-operation with Gilbert for the remainder of the race. Further doubt arose as Leukemans did not try whatever possible to get the faster Gilbert to lead out the sprint.

Instead, Leukemans led out Gilbert towards his almost certain sprint victory.

“Why would I slow down? Gilbert can sit in front of me, it just doesn't matter. He's faster at the finish line and that's it,” Leukemans argued.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/leukema ... antse-pijl

Yellow Peril

CyclingBantam wrote:

I must admit I don't particually mind it, certainly in the circumstances like a stage race where the leader lets a small break go up the road in order for favours to be called in later.

I am not eloquent enough to say whay I don't mind it in Cycling but would in other sports but I just find it is different to normal 'match fixing'. Like the monkey said, it is what makes cycling interesting, all the sub plots.

I think the difference here was that it appeared so blatant. It wasn't as though co-operation were being sought for a chase down or that there was a trade off of a stage win for an overall jersey. It was a one day race and the two guys had amassed a fairly sustainable lead by the time they had their big chat.

As you suggest though the real reason for the entente cordiale may not show itself until some point later in the season.

dougzz

Why would a guy that's one back to back Lombardia's amongst many other things want such a small race so badly?

RichN95.

dougzz wrote:

Why would a guy that's one back to back Lombardia's amongst many other things want such a small race so badly?

In fact, as someone who will be looking to win races in the next two weekends, it might have benefited him to look vunerable and lose. After all, Cancellara's show of strength at E3 didn't serve him well.

dougzz

^^
One or won even
Conspiracy theories aside, any deal in favour of Gilbert doesn't make sense on the face of it.