Islamic veils is it right to ban and issue fines?

DonDaddyD

So, our French (well the Normans did conquer Britain) overlords have decided to ban and issue fines to women wearing the Islamic veil.

While the law doesn't specifically name Islamic veils it does, apprantly, list a number of exceptions which essentially singles out Islamic veils.

Do you think such a ban is the right? Would you like to see the UK to adopt such a stance? And obviously why?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13050445

Agent57

No I don't think it's right. No I wouldn't like to see the UK follow suit. Because I don't think the state should dictate what clothes we're allowed to wear.

bigmat

no

Kieran_Burns

I think you need to restate the actual law - they are banning any public face masking, which INCLUDES the burqa

DonDaddyD

Agent57 wrote:

No I don't think it's right. No I wouldn't like to see the UK follow suit. Because I don't think the state should dictate what clothes we're allowed to wear.

Hang on, didn't they expel a school girl for wearing a veil and refusing to take it off?

What about teenagers and hoodies? OK not the same as a religious item but telling people what to wear does happen in this country.

EKE_38BPM

What about Buffs?

CyclingBantam

I really don't know at the moment with this one.

In the first instance I think it is ridiculous and offencive that they can ban anyones clothing however, looking at it without being quite so reactionary, is it reasonable for people to walk around with their faces permenantly covered, probably not.

Having said that, so long as they are not doing anything wrong then it is only my problem they have their face covered. So I actually think, yes, it is wrong to ban them.

It should be illegal to rob somewhere with your face covered though... pardon.... oh.

My head hurts now.

tailwindhome

What about Ninjas?

jonginge

EKE_38BPM wrote:

What about Buffs?

What about motorcycle helmets?

Edit: ah, DDD posted a list of exceptions

DonDaddyD

Kieran_Burns wrote:

I think you need to restate the actual law - they are banning any public face masking, which INCLUDES the burqa

I've added a link but basic exceptions:

Exceptions to ban on public face covering

* Motorcycle helmets
* Face-masks for health reasons
* Face-covering for sporting or professional activities
* Sunglasses, hats etc which do not completely hide the face
* Masks used in "traditional activities", such as carnivals or religious processions

Source: Radio France International

notsoblue

The ban is wrong. I can see why they introduced it, but I don't think the government should interfere at that level.

daviesee

I don't think there should be a ban on clothing per se.
However, wherever and whenever ID is required I can see the point. Motorbike helmets have to be removed in a variety of places for example.

rick_chasey

A law aimed at a particular mainstream religion?

I think it's absolutely awful.

tailwindhome

DonDaddyD wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

I think you need to restate the actual law - they are banning any public face masking, which INCLUDES the burqa

I've added a link but basic exceptions:

Exceptions to ban on public face covering

* Motorcycle helmets
* Face-masks for health reasons
* Face-covering for sporting or professional activities
* Sunglasses, hats etc which do not completely hide the face
* Masks used in "traditional activities", such as carnivals or religious processions

Source: Radio France International

Would superheroes be covered by professional activities?

Anonymous

It all depends on whether the woman in question is wearing the veil out of choice, or if she is being forced to by her husband/dad/brother.

I believe the fine for forcing a women to wear a Burqa is a LOT higher than for being caught wearing one.

I don't like Burqa, I find them quite creepy. But that's my problem I don't like the idea of the government controling what someone should wear.

One other thing, what are the really hard line Muslims going to do now? Are they just going to give up and stop wearing them. Or are husbands going to force women to stay in doors at all times? It may be seen as a exercise to liberate women, but it could have the opposite effect for really hardcore families.

rjsterry

daviesee wrote:

I don't think there should be a ban on clothing per se.
However, wherever and whenever ID is required I can see the point. Motorbike helmets have to be removed in a variety of places for example.

I don't think those who choose to cover their face generally have an objection to uncovering it when reasonably required for identification or other practical reason. It's the general going about their business that's at issue. This is supposed to enforce a more homogenous and integrated society, but I can only see this backfiring.

rollingthunder

The French are after all religions. They've dealt with Tom Cruises brigade, and nobody said anything. Now they're after the rest and it's too late to stop anything. Freedom gets eroded daily. Each country does it differently. It's the age old battle between religious freedom and religious uniformity.

davmaggs

difficult one as I'd naturally say that the state should stay completely out of people's lives. However the veil is interesting as it can be seen as very political. In Turkey for example head scarfs were fairly uncommon in cities, but are now on the rise as Islam becomes political.

Also the question is raised about how free a free choice to really wear it really is when the woman is subject to cultural trends and variables that mean that she is not going to be making a completely independent decision. Again, we can look to places where covering up was not prevelent years ago even though the people were Muslims and now it is.

The french worry that areas of their cities are increasingly becoming separate from the nation (e.g not speaking French, not obeying laws that conflict with customs from elsewhere). The veil is closely linked to this (even if it is a minority activity at the moment in France).

All in all this is a tough one.

sketchley

Interesting question this one.

On one hand it's everyone right to express religious (and fashion) freedom no matter how wrong or miss guided it may be.

On the other hand it's wrong to repress someone on the grounds of gender.

So question depends on if you see the Islamic veil as a religous simble or as a mean of supression of women.

I have no idea of answer.

andyrm

Tough call this.

Should we dictate what people can and cannot wear? On simple levels, no. But when we are talking about a piece of clothing that makes it impossible to identify the wearer, in fact even identify if they are a man or woman, that makes me uneasy. I don't think it is right that people should be able to hide themselves and their identity completely.

Also - this is personal experience. One of my best and oldest friends (of 30+ years, I grew up in Luton) is of Pakistani Kashmiri origin (he's 3rd generation) and has told me and my sisters all about the problems of trying to integrate into society - generally, the more forward thinking families grant their women more freedoms, who in turn are very often the catalysts of developing contact with people from outside their own communities (mums meeting in playgrounds etc). By making the women wear fully enclosed outfits, the women are repressed by being unable to communicate and interact with others, so yes it is a repressive piece of clothing.

To the people who say the women choose to wear it - if they have been indoctrinated from an early age that they have to wear it to avoid becoming corrupted like the Western infidel prostitutes that they are told Western women are, then I can see how they would choose to do so. But that "choice" is as the result of false indoctrination so not a true and free choice.

This is such a complex issue - not sure there is a simple answer to it. :?:

prj45

No no no no no no no.

At the same time it should be illegal to force people what to wear (i.e. men forcing women to wear the veil if they don't want to) it should be illegal to force people not to wear what they want.

Stevo_666

It's up to the French what they do.

But from our point of view, imagine how difficult it is having an identity parade if some Middle Eastern woman is caught shoplifting on the Edgware Road...

lost_in_thought

Echo all the sentiments above about how tricky it is, have nothing more to add really, apart from the fact that one must bear in mind the aggressive secularism of the French...

Agent57

I should wear my shemagh more often.



I kinda look like a ninja, don't I?

sketchley

Agent57 wrote:

I should wear my shemagh more often.



I kinda look like a ninja, don't I?

Nope I can see you..

EKE_38BPM

Sketchley wrote:

Agent57 wrote:

I should wear my shemagh more often.



I kinda look like a ninja, don't I?

Nope I can see you..

I can see three, but the last one is doing my head in. Any clues?

sketchley

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

Agent57 wrote:

I should wear my shemagh more often.



I kinda look like a ninja, don't I?

Nope I can see you..

I can see three, but the last one is doing my head in. Any clues?

Look at the reflection in the tv.

Agent57

Back to the Lee Van Cleef School of Ninja-ing for me.

jeremyrundle

100% YES, ban anything that covers a persons face so they can not be seen, hoods etc, and the overgarments worn by women of the islam faith are NOT worn for religion, no where does it say islam women have to wear it, the majority of English women of that religion are against it being worn, I would ban hoodies etc.

I have even been asked to remove my cycle helmet in a supermarket as they do motorbike helmets, happy to oblige , I have NOTHING to hide :x

If I were to go to France to live I would honor their beliefs and views, trouble is we allow everyone to come here and S*D the old British ways, live here respect us as I would others in their country.

sketchley

Wow bit extreem there Jeremy!

What about an individuals right to wear what they want?

MaxwellBygraves

Rick is dead against it, Jeremy all for it...

Who'd have thunk?