Why is my Roadie no faster...?

optimisticbiker

... is it just me, or am i missing something in my technique...

Before i go on, lets get some things clear... I've cycled near on 15000km in last 10y, so I reckon I am a reasonably competent cyclist.

The bulk of this has been done on my Pinnacle commuter which has a FSA Vero Road Triple 30/42/52T Crankset and a Shimano CS-HG50, 11-25T, 9speed Cassette. Generally I ride this on the 42T ring and the 17/15/13T sprockets, tho i do get up onto the big ring and 11T from time to time. I manage a moving average speed around 22km/hr (13.8mph) on my commute. I run Continental road tyres 700x28c at 100psi.

So I had an expectation on my new roadie that I'd be faster - not greatly so, after all there's only the same power input - but the lower rolling and wind resistance should count for something, shouldnt it? Yet I find I am working harder to achieve a slightly lower overall performance over the same route...

Tyre pressures for the Vittoria Zaffiro, 700 x 23c road tyres are correct. The new bike is fitted with a 50/34T compact chainset and Shimano 105 CS-5700, 10-speed, 11-25T cassette. I find I am riding mostly on the bigger ring and the 16/17T sprocket, so roughly the same gearing as before I think...

So what am I doing wrong? :oops: Or is it just I have an unreasonable expectation?

Sensible, constructive answers only please

lemoncurd

The majority of your effort is used overcoming wind resistance, you need to reduce this to go faster so try spending more time on the drops.

kettrinboy

Like you say its the same pair of legs pushing the pedals round, if you are putting the same amount of effort in on your roadie as you do on your commuter then you will end up at about the same speed, i use a hybrid and a carbon road bike, and though on the same routes usually go faster on the roadbike its mainly due to the fact i tend to ride it harder,i regularly do a 10 mile loop on both and the difference on the fastest times is 35 secs,that was a maximum effort on both those rides, the road bike is probably faster due to being 8 lb lighter and more aero as i,ll use the drops all the way on that, the hybrid loses those seconds because of the upright riding position and being 9 speed as opposed to the road bikes 10 might lose a few more secs,but my fastest times on the hybrid have beaten the slower times on the roadbike,so speed is more about the rider than the bike , and weather conditions play a big part.

amaferanga

Does your road bike have a stack of spacers under the stem and/or a stem that's pointing up? My guess is your position on your road bike is no more aero than that on your hybrid.

emx

OptimisticBiker wrote:

I've cycled near on 15000km in last 10y, so I reckon I am a reasonably competent cyclist.

15,000km in the last 10 years works out at an average of around 20 miles per week - not a lot really....

kettrinboy

amaferanga wrote:

Does your road bike have a stack of spacers under the stem and/or a stem that's pointing up? My guess is your position on your road bike is no more aero than that on your hybrid.

Actually its the other way round , on the hybrid the stem is pointing down and on top of the top head race, spacers above, so as low as i can get it,so about the equivalent of riding my road bike on the hoods,thats probably why its not that far behind on short courses.

antfly

OP get some better tyres and you'll go faster.

sparkins1972

I am by no means an expert on this kind of thing but I encountered similar when I moved from my hybrid to my road bike. Initially my speeds over 20 - 40 mile loops was pretty much identical and I was starting to wonder why I had wasted the money on a spanking carbon road bike. I felt really awkward in the new positions due to the subtle changes in geometry, but over time my body learnt how to cycle differently and what felt odd initially now feels second nature and my speed, comfort and stamina have increased. I was seriously uncomfortable in the drops at the start, so did a lot of stretching, especially of the hamstrings, hips etc and now I can ride comfortably in the drops which makes me quicker especially into a headwind and downhill.

So stick with it!

ShutUpLegs

antfly wrote:

OP get some better tyres and you'll go faster.

I had those tyres once, they didn't roll very well at all.

amaferanga

antfly wrote:

OP get some better tyres and you'll go faster.

Really? I know the Zaffiro's aren't great tyres, but in the real world how much quicker would better tyres make him? My guess would be no more than 0.01 mph.

Peddle Up!

I know other posters have queried my experience but when I went from a hybrid to a road bike I knocked 2mph off my average for a 26 miler (16 > 18 mph). One my new bike (first all carbon) five circuits are showing something between a further 1 - 1.5 mph improvement. As I'm past my sell-by date I don't anticipate much in the way of further improvement but I'm always hopeful.

I guess riding in the drops has something to do with it as does the "need for speed" feeling you get on a road bike. As a more tenuous suggestion, what is the original poster wearing? A big baggy T-shirt and shorts have got to slow you down a bit.

antfly

amaferanga wrote:

antfly wrote:

OP get some better tyres and you'll go faster.

Really? I know the Zaffiro's aren't great tyres, but in the real world how much quicker would better tyres make him? My guess would be no more than 0.01 mph.

I would say 0.5mph and possibly more. I haven't used those tyres but at under 8 quid they probably aren't the quickest.

ShutUpLegs

antfly wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

antfly wrote:

OP get some better tyres and you'll go faster.

Really? I know the Zaffiro's aren't great tyres, but in the real world how much quicker would better tyres make him? My guess would be no more than 0.01 mph.

I would say 0.5mph and possibly more. I haven't used those tyres but at under 8 quid they probably aren't the quickest.

No mention of the wheels either, which could be heavy rollers

optimisticbiker

Thanks all for your (generally constructive) comments

Tyres: I have read conflicting reports on the Zaffiro and I'd agree the wheels probably aren't the greatest (Alex ALX-190, 24/28H, aero profile rims with CNC sidewalls), but the roadie weighs in several kg lighter than the hybrid so I would be surprised that a replacement 700x23 tyre would make that much a difference - in comparison to the difference between the 700x28 and the 700x23. However, because I hate the white tyre - it looks dirty already - what (reasonably priced) alternates would you recommend?

Clothing: I wear (to my wife's dismay and disgust) a close fitting top, and padded shorts (both short and 3/4s), and a gore bikewear windstopper if needed. No baggies here please...

@sparkins1972 - this is close to my view as to the situation... my gut feeling is I just need to persevere more... the riding position is very different and I'm still getting used to it. I'm not convinced the saddle is in the right place fore/aft either.

@emx - yes the per day average is low, but thats because I was working somewhere not commutable by bike for a while... this year I'm averaging 50miles/week and aiming to get to 100+. My point was about experience not distance covered.

bails87

How are you measuring you rspeeds and distance?
I don't mean to patronise, but you haven't done something like swap the computer over without taking account of a different wheel size? E.g. if your old bike had 26" wheels and your new one is 700c?

Fat-Boy-Roubaix

I went from a steel 29er Hybrid on skinny tyres to a Carbon road bike (Roubaix Comp)

I went slower on my identical commute, with what seemed like more effort I was doing the same time.

In the last two weeks having read a thread on Cadence I increased mine by 10% trying to average 80 rpm, (total avg for ride 76 from 70) and using the inner front ring more

It has not only improved my times but I much more enjoy the new bike now.

I put it down to going from a triple with hybrid gearing to a compact and not using the inner ring enough out of habit and grinding the rotations out

optimisticbiker

bails87 wrote:

How are you measuring you rspeeds and distance?
I don't mean to patronise, but you haven't done something like swap the computer over without taking account of a different wheel size? E.g. if your old bike had 26" wheels and your new one is 700c?

Garmin Edge800... but both are 700 (old x28, new x23)

dodgy

A road bike allows you to further exploit your potential, it won't necessarily make you faster.

A roadie = someone who rides a road bike
A road bike = a road bike

Get on the drops more, but in my experience, better wheels will have the starkest change in results (after fitness).

Good luck.

John.T

You are not using similar gears. 42/15 and 42/17 are both lower than 50/17. 42/13 is only a little higher than 50/16. Put your rings and sprockets in this calculator and see the difference.
http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/

AidanR

Rolling resistance - in general wider tyres roll a bit better than narrower tyres, but with an aerodynamic penalty. So there is every chance that your (presumably good quality) Conti tyres on the hybrid have a significantly lower rolling resistance (>0.5mph) than the cheap ones on your road bike.

Aerodynamics - as others have pointed out, this is all to do with your position on the bike. Has it changed much?

Power output - if your position on the bike has changed significantly, your power output may be slightly down whilst your muscles adjust.

Weight - if it isn't hilly and your ride isn't very stop-start, weight won't make an appreciable difference.

father_jack

My full roadbike is very slightly quicker than my fast tourer, not massive but is just noticeable.

23 versus 25 tyres
road bike bit more crouched over
Panniers on the tourer (rear)
Steel on the tourer so a bit heavier, maybe 2kg more

optimisticbiker

Fat-Boy-Roubaix wrote:

In the last two weeks having read a thread on Cadence I increased mine by 10% trying to average 80 rpm, (total avg for ride 76 from 70) and using the inner front ring more

It has not only improved my times but I much more enjoy the new bike now.
...

Yes, I have also recognised the need to increase cadence. I have a cadence sensor but not fitted it yet. My natural cadence on the hybrid is around 65, which may well be too low but I dont have a lot of fast twitch muscle... I used to run marathons and other long-distance - I could easily do 40miles at low pace, but a fast 5k would kill me... so upping my cadence isnt going to be easy. Upping cadence 10% is going to need a 10% increase in power output to maintain the same torque and careful choice of gears to best utilise it...

You're right about the smaller ring... 42/17-15-13 @ 65rpm on the triple would best equate to 34/13-12 + 50/15 on the compact, but I am tending to ride it on the big gear more. So I need to build up more leg strength and ride on the smaller ring until I can get my cadence higher...

optimisticbiker

John.T wrote:

You are not using similar gears. 42/15 and 42/17 are both lower than 50/17. 42/13 is only a little higher than 50/16. Put your rings and sprockets in this calculator and see the difference.
http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/

Yes, I've spreadsheeted it now... my mental arithmetic isnt what it was... :?

AidanR

OptimisticBiker wrote:

My natural cadence on the hybrid is around 65, which may well be too low but I dont have a lot of fast twitch muscle... I used to run marathons and other long-distance - I could easily do 40miles at low pace, but a fast 5k would kill me... so upping my cadence isnt going to be easy. Upping cadence 10% is going to need a 10% increase in power output to maintain the same torque and careful choise of gears to best utilise it...

You're right about the smaller ring... 42/17-15-13 @ 65rpm on the triple would best equate to 34/13-12 + 50/15 on the compact, but I am tending to ride it on the big gear more. So I need to build up more leg strength and ride on the smaller ring until I can get my cadence higher...

I think you're getting a little confused about fast twitch and slow twitch fibres. Fast twitch are good at producing a lot of power - it's not really got that much to do with speed of limb. It does in running as generally if you are moving your legs fast you're going fast, but in cycling gears detach the link between speed of legs and speed of bike. I'd argue, in fact, that you'd be more suited to a higher cadence because of your slow twitch fibres.

Secondly, you're over-thinking the cadence thing somewhat - if you want to improve your cadence you don't need to get 10% stronger or more powerful, you just need to shift down a gear!

Peddle Up!

I'd be happy with any kind of twitch.

antfly

AidanR wrote:

OptimisticBiker wrote:

My natural cadence on the hybrid is around 65, which may well be too low but I dont have a lot of fast twitch muscle... I used to run marathons and other long-distance - I could easily do 40miles at low pace, but a fast 5k would kill me... so upping my cadence isnt going to be easy. Upping cadence 10% is going to need a 10% increase in power output to maintain the same torque and careful choise of gears to best utilise it...

You're right about the smaller ring... 42/17-15-13 @ 65rpm on the triple would best equate to 34/13-12 + 50/15 on the compact, but I am tending to ride it on the big gear more. So I need to build up more leg strength and ride on the smaller ring until I can get my cadence higher...

Secondly, you're over-thinking the cadence thing somewhat - if you want to improve your cadence you don't need to get 10% stronger or more powerful, you just need to shift down a gear!

Exactly, just keep it in a gear that gives you a high cadence that feels comfortable, for me it's in the nineties most of the time, 80 to 100 seems to be what is commonly advised.

Garz

AidanR wrote:

Weight - if it isn't hilly and your ride isn't very stop-start, weight won't make an appreciable difference.

Apart from wind resistance I was going to mention this above. The lighter road bike should make the biggest difference on a long ascent more than on any flats or decent. That and it should be faster at accelerating.

optimisticbiker

AidanR wrote:

OptimisticBiker wrote:

My natural cadence on the hybrid is around 65, which may well be too low but I dont have a lot of fast twitch muscle... I used to run marathons and other long-distance - I could easily do 40miles at low pace, but a fast 5k would kill me... so upping my cadence isnt going to be easy. Upping cadence 10% is going to need a 10% increase in power output to maintain the same torque and careful choise of gears to best utilise it...

You're right about the smaller ring... 42/17-15-13 @ 65rpm on the triple would best equate to 34/13-12 + 50/15 on the compact, but I am tending to ride it on the big gear more. So I need to build up more leg strength and ride on the smaller ring until I can get my cadence higher...

I think you're getting a little confused about fast twitch and slow twitch fibres. Fast twitch are good at producing a lot of power - it's not really got that much to do with speed of limb. It does in running as generally if you are moving your legs fast you're going fast, but in cycling gears detach the link between speed of legs and speed of bike. I'd argue, in fact, that you'd be more suited to a higher cadence because of your slow twitch fibres.

Secondly, you're over-thinking the cadence thing somewhat - if you want to improve your cadence you don't need to get 10% stronger or more powerful, you just need to shift down a gear!

hmmm.. but with the higher cadence I tire much faster. :?

AidanR

Well, it's partly what you're used to. Also, are you using clip-in pedals?

You don't *have* to pedal with a higher cadence - some people have a naturally low cadence.

harrymunro

As soon as my carbon frame breaks I'm buying steel. This is a perfect example of how it's more about the rider than the bike.

Fat-Boy-Roubaix

Uping your RPM while decreasing your gearing shouldn't cost anything other than maybe more heart and lungs.

65 seems quite low and maybe you are grinding the gears a little. Then again I do not claim to be any kind of expert!