Climbing Technique
Peddle Up!
Posts: 2,040
Trying to climb (and failing, again 
) a "little tinker" of a hill on my regular circuit I met another cyclist who was zig-zagging across the road width. "Hey", I said, "That's cheating!"
Is it?
If you're interested in the climb, it's Bushcombe Lane
) a "little tinker" of a hill on my regular circuit I met another cyclist who was zig-zagging across the road width. "Hey", I said, "That's cheating!"Is it?
If you're interested in the climb, it's Bushcombe Lane
Purveyor of "up" 
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Comments
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If you get to the top without walking, you havent cheated!
My argument would be that zig zagging on a hill isnt particularly safe!
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mattward1979 wrote:If you get to the top without walking, you havent cheated!
My argument would be that zig zagging on a hill isnt particularly safe!
And doubling the distanceSirrus Comp 2010 (commuting)
Roubaix Pro SL Sram red (Weekend sportives)
Certini Campagnolo Mirage (Turbo trainer)0 -
It might help if you are already in your lowest gear and can't push it, but not otherwise...0
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Well hell just getting up that climb without walking is an achievement, never mind whether you zig-zag or go straight. Bushcombe lane is over 30% in places and I failed to get up it both times I tried during the Circuit of the Cotswolds sportive.0
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climbing has more to do with fitness than technique....0
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emx wrote:climbing has more to do with fitness than technique....
Very true, Im 14 stone, overweight, yet the only hill to beat me was Porlock in Somerset, but that was more due to going in cold rather than warming up first. But I will beat it. Living in Cornwall I have no choice but to ride hills and getting off isnt an option.
So my advice would be to just keep riding them, they never get easier because you just do them faster.
Next week I am riding from Cornwall to Berkshire 190 miles over 2 days. 90 the first, 100 the second. The second day has 3000ft less climbing than the first. Should be funSirrus Comp 2010 (commuting)
Roubaix Pro SL Sram red (Weekend sportives)
Certini Campagnolo Mirage (Turbo trainer)0 -
What gears have you got? A MTB with a 24/34 bottom gear is one thing, trying to do 30% with a racing 39/25 or even compact 34/27 is quite another. With the latter it's enough of a challenge to unclip in time to avoid falling over sideways when you finally run out of momentum...So my advice would be to just keep riding them, they never get easier because you just do them faster.
Agreed, round here in the south downs it's mostly short, sharp climbs up to around 15% and at first they can be fairly horrible - e.g. the struggle up from South Harting that the TDF took - but after a while you find that you can climb most things ok. Don't think anything here tops 20% though.0 -
The only reason to zigzag is to miss out the intense steepness of an inside bend. Usually, a 25% road with a hairpin bend will have (I'm guessing at this approx) a 33% inside bend with a 20% outside for a few short metres.
If the hill is fairly straight, zigzaging will lose you momentum at each turn. Watch how the speed increases when the rider is on the gradient, then loses the speed as he/she turns.
I'm not sure of the energy consumed but I reckon it less efficient to zigzag then to go straight up, unless there's a tight hairpin bend to negotiate. Remember a 100 metre height climb is 100 metres height climbed no matter how you approach it, it's just that zigzagging means you have to travel more distance.CAAD9
Kona Jake the Snake
Merlin Malt 40 -
I disagree.emx wrote:climbing has more to do with fitness than technique....
I have a hill nearby that I do hill reps on. My PB lies at about 4:15 but this year I've been able to do it just 8 seconds slower at a much lower heart rate and in nowhere near the same level of pain. This is not down to an increased fitness as I hardly rode over the winter but because I changed the way I climbed it. Rather than attacking it from the bottom I stayed seated, thus conserving lots of energy I was previously wasting in supporting my weight.
The best bit of advice I've received for hill climbing is to start in a lower gear then you think you'll need, then change up when you feel under geared. If you start with a harder gear and change down you'll just destroy your legs and I doubt there will be any difference between your cadence before and after the gear change, meaning you're now going slower. I made that mistake today as I underestimated a hill and struggled a lot more than I should have done as a result.
Ultimately, it's down to personal choice so experiment with a variety of techniques before you find the one that best suits you.0 -
Good shout, sorry I was under the assumption that everyone tries to stay seated the whole time. But true, I used to do the same, up out of the saddle. Now I stay seated until I really need to get out, conserving alot of energy.mask of sanity wrote:
I disagree.emx wrote:climbing has more to do with fitness than technique....
I have a hill nearby that I do hill reps on. My PB lies at about 4:15 but this year I've been able to do it just 8 seconds slower at a much lower heart rate and in nowhere near the same level of pain. This is not down to an increased fitness as I hardly rode over the winter but because I changed the way I climbed it. Rather than attacking it from the bottom I stayed seated, thus conserving lots of energy I was previously wasting in supporting my weight.
The best bit of advice I've received for hill climbing is to start in a lower gear then you think you'll need, then change up when you feel under geared. If you start with a harder gear and change down you'll just destroy your legs and I doubt there will be any difference between your cadence before and after the gear change, meaning you're now going slower. I made that mistake today as I underestimated a hill and struggled a lot more than I should have done as a result.
Ultimately, it's down to personal choice so experiment with a variety of techniques before you find the one that best suits you.Sirrus Comp 2010 (commuting)
Roubaix Pro SL Sram red (Weekend sportives)
Certini Campagnolo Mirage (Turbo trainer)0 -
jamespiggot wrote:Well hell just getting up that climb without walking is an achievement, never mind whether you zig-zag or go straight. Bushcombe lane is over 30% in places and I failed to get up it both times I tried during the Circuit of the Cotswolds sportive.
As I said, the hill is a "little tinker" I don't think I'll ever get up it. Purveyor of "up"0 -
There's a myth that seated climbing is more efficient, fact is you can put a whole lot more power out and therefore you can drop anyone trying to remain seated - whilst seated does conserve some energy, if you're fit / strong enough to get out the saddle then it makes a difference.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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mask of sanity wrote:
I disagree.emx wrote:climbing has more to do with fitness than technique....
really..? you think that better climbing is about technique - not about power/weight and cardio fitness..??
Whatever it is you're drinking fella......I want some too...0 -
Pretty sure I didn't say that...emx wrote:mask of sanity wrote:
I disagree.emx wrote:climbing has more to do with fitness than technique....
really..? you think that better climbing is about technique - not about power/weight and cardio fitness..??
Whatever it is you're drinking fella......I want some too...
Good climbing is about fitness AND good technique.
BTW, I was just drinking from my water bottle whilst waiting for you at the top of the hill. :P0 -
The most important technique on long solo climbs (if you want to get the best time you can) is getting the pacing just right. Too strong to begin with and you are knackered and losing power towards the top, too gentle and you could have gone faster...0
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Monty Dog wrote:There's a myth that seated climbing is more efficient, fact is you can put a whole lot more power out and therefore you can drop anyone trying to remain seated - whilst seated does conserve some energy, if you're fit / strong enough to get out the saddle then it makes a difference.
Exactly. Contador is always dancing on his pedals out of the saddle when he climbs. Drugs helps obviously
Speaking of which: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzPq0hDdDhs0 -
There's a fairly grim climb near me. My local beacon hill. Most of it is fairly gentle and on one road near the top it becomes a bit of a cliff. Today I span up most of it. Then dropped a couple of gears and stood up for the cliff. Standing is worth 2 more gears. I find if I drop a couple and stand it's reassuring that I have a couple of gears going spare!
Ahh, Monty Dog, you'll know it. Fleet to Ewshot, Beacon Hill Road.0 -
Dmak wrote:There's a fairly grim climb near me. My local beacon hill. Most of it is fairly gentle and on one road near the top it becomes a bit of a cliff. Today I span up most of it. Then dropped a couple of gears and stood up for the cliff. Standing is worth 2 more gears. I find if I drop a couple and stand it's reassuring that I have a couple of gears going spare!
Ahh, Monty Dog, you'll know it. Fleet to Ewshot, Beacon Hill Road.
I can't stand in the same gear I sit with. I need to notch it up at least 1 gear higher or my legs spin too fast.0 -
Whilst climbing seated you use your legs almost 100%. If you stand up, you use your body weight + your leg power + your arms pulling on handlebars.
If you weigh 80 kg, then that is how much extra basic force you are putting on each pedal as you rock from one to the other. In the seated position, your weight is supported by your seat, dragging on the rear wheel.CAAD9
Kona Jake the Snake
Merlin Malt 40 -
:oops: A problem I've come recently with the damp / wet country lanes is when I stand & "dance" on the pedals I find there is a definite loss of traction. Gave me a fright last week on Wrynose , I got off & walked . I wouldn't have ridden it all anyway.0
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CAAD9
Kona Jake the Snake
Merlin Malt 40 -
Surely, unless the laws of physics have changed, your weight is always split between front and rear wheels and therefore drag is nearly constant. The only different standing makes is the split between front and rear, as you lean forward there is more weight distribution to the front. The effect on drag, assuming your tyres are hard is very little - the rear will distort less, the front more so, so as the rolling resistance of the rear reduces, that of the front increases. I disagree that standing primarily allows you to use your weight to provide extra force as if it did you'd have to raise it again on each pedal rotation cancelling out the effort expended - what it does do is bring into play your arm muscles (which i agree help raise your body and allow a modicum of weight-induced force) but primarily it makes your leg muscles more efficient by reducing the angle through which the leg has to work - moving the body back and forth instead and reducing knee angle.Buckled_Rims wrote:Whilst climbing seated you use your legs almost 100%. If you stand up, you use your body weight + your leg power + your arms pulling on handlebars.
If you weigh 80 kg, then that is how much extra basic force you are putting on each pedal as you rock from one to the other. In the seated position, your weight is supported by your seat, dragging on the rear wheel.Invacare Spectra Plus electric wheelchair, max speed 4mph
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Zoomer37 wrote:
Wow, for me to get up that at around 5mph I'd need to put out over 600watts for over minute. According to this powercalc thingy anyway.0 -
The main hill on my commute I used to get out of the saddle early doors to try and gain momentum, but found I was blowing my legs out early doors. I stay in the saddle and move up it spinning at around 8-9mph slowing near the top to 7ish. Main difference is that I am not in too bad shape at the peak.
Then again I am not sure how the hill would rate, so if anyone knows it A23 Redhill I find Northbound harder than South, although South is steeper it is much shorter. Coming North I think I am climbing most of the way from Work so quite tired by Redhill..0 -
People think waaay to much about all this.
It's just pedalling.
I've been fiddling around with gears and single speeds and fixies, and i've noticed that within reason, I pretty much get up a climb at the same speed for the same given effort whether i'm mashing my face off on a massively overgeared fixie or spinning (which I prefer).
All this 'technique' is a way of people trying to hide the fact that ultimatley cycling is enormously basic untill you start racing.
Technique makes no more than a few percent difference.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:All this 'technique' is a way of people trying to hide the fact that ultimatley cycling is enormously basic untill you start racing.
I agree with your comments, but without this "until racing" caveat. The tactics in racing may be complicated, but physiologically it's just going flat out. ("Flat out" is when everybody's dropped their "techniques" and stylistic affectations they were trying to maintain- breathing/pedalling a certain way, etc..)
I think people here are a bit starstruck about bike racing and racers. They're just fitter than you (and me) and more competitive. It doesn't bestow any great understanding or sensitivity.0 -
balthazar wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:All this 'technique' is a way of people trying to hide the fact that ultimatley cycling is enormously basic untill you start racing.
I agree with your comments, but without this "until racing" caveat. The tactics in racing may be complicated, but physiologically it's just going flat out. ("Flat out" is when everybody's dropped their "techniques" and stylistic affectations they were trying to maintain- breathing/pedalling a certain way, etc..)
I think people here are a bit starstruck about bike racing and racers. They're just fitter than you (and me) and more competitive. It doesn't bestow any great understanding or sensitivity.
I'd say there's an element of technique when riding in a bunch - hitting big climbs in a group, moving up and down the group etc.0 -
Agree it is just peddling, but you do concede you prefer the spinning "technique"
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Fat-Boy-Roubaix wrote:Agree it is just peddling, but you do concede you prefer the spinning "technique"
I refer to it as pedalling "style".
Then again, I was largely an arts student, not a science student. :P0
