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What Brakes for vintage frames?

SteelysiuSteelysiu Posts: 8
edited November 2011 in Road beginners
I’m looking to purchase some new brakes for my vintage Raleigh ‘Super sprint’ reynolds 501.

P1450844.jpg

I’ve tried attaching ‘Dia compe BRS 100’* brakes on – BIG mistake, as I’ve discovered the ‘recessed’ Vs ‘Nut&hex bolt’ incompatibility problem.
*Does anyone know where and who manufactures these, so I can contact.
P1450843.jpg
P1450841.jpg

I've wanted these Gold brakes so badly i've even contacted nut & bolt companies trying to obtain bolts long enough to fit through the frame so I can fit a 'hex' nut on.
boltfront.jpg
This is not looking promising....

I think i'm gonna need to buy other brakes. Any advise on what I can purchase for vintage frames. Or maybe how I can salvage these fresh gold brakes on my Raleigh frame.
Its a learning curve!

Posts

  • redveeredvee Posts: 11,921
    This might work but would mean taking the callipers apart.

    http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... 0s100p2341
    I've added a signature to prove it is still possible.
  • ride_wheneverride_whenever Posts: 13,279
    Can't you use a recess style nut that is longer and drill out the hole in the rear of the forks a little more.

    Or use the one that has the longer fixing bolt on.
  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,433
    Have a look on here, if you post on the forum, they're prety helpful.
    http://www.retrobike.co.uk/
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • redvee wrote:
    This might work but would mean taking the callipers apart.

    http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... 0s100p2341

    Thanks redvee.
    I've already taken the brake apart (the pic of the bolt is from the gold brakes)
    Ive just emailed Spa Cycles. Fingerz crossed
  • Monty DogMonty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Yup, just drill-out the back of the forks / brake bridge to take the allen key nut fitting - it was a common mod for old frames.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • Monty Dog wrote:
    Yup, just drill-out the back of the forks / brake bridge to take the allen key nut fitting - it was a common mod for old frames.

    Drilling into my frame might well just have to happen, but i thought i'd venture for an adaptable bolt 1st.
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,286
    Have a read on Sheldon Brown's website on this.

    Simplest solution is to use the front brake on the back of the bike; the bolt is then long enough to go through the bridge and take an approprate m5 nut / washer (you might need to source or bodge the shaped spacers to fit either side of the bridge)

    Then drill out the hole at the back of the fork (NOT THE FRONT!) and fit the rear caliper using a longer hex bolt of the kind often used with chunky carbon forks. You may even be able to find a gold one!
  • secretsamsecretsam Posts: 4,549
    Or buy some nut brakes, I have an old 531 where I replaced the pathetic centre pulls with some long reach nut fit dual pivot (a whole £10 each from Condor!!!). Think Tektro and Alhonga do some - Spa should be able to help.

    It's just a hill. Get over it.
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,286
    I was trying to help him fit his lovely gold DiaCompes!

    I was looking for some old style nut mounted brakes a while ago; found some likely candidates from SJS. Then I took the knackered weinmanns off the Peugeot and found they were in fact mounted using recessed hex nuts! So I got some even cheaper long drop Alhongas from Spa.
  • keef66 wrote:
    Have a read on Sheldon Brown's website on this.

    Simplest solution is to use the front brake on the back of the bike; the bolt is then long enough to go through the bridge and take an approprate m5 nut / washer (you might need to source or bodge the shaped spacers to fit either side of the bridge)

    Then drill out the hole at the back of the fork (NOT THE FRONT!) and fit the rear caliper using a longer hex bolt of the kind often used with chunky carbon forks. You may even be able to find a gold one!

    Thanks keef66. The thought had crossed my mind, but then yeh, there was then the issue with what bout the front brake? I would still need to acquire a bolt there?! Unless, 1- just settled with one back brake, or 2- attached a different front brake. - Naaaaa.

    What bout purchasing x2 front brakes. Fit on on the back, and for the front drill the fork to fit the recessed allan key bolt? Or is that wot you just said?
    Thanks[/url]
  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,433
    You could always get a set of vintage brakes which you know will fit and get them anodized gold ? Not the ideal solution, but it's an option.
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • mattshropsmattshrops Posts: 1,158
    just find your local trading estate pop along to an engineering workshop and get them to make you some. seriously with a lathe its dead easy, you just might need to do some sweet talking because of the low volume required.
    Death or Glory- Just another Story
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,286
    Here you go; slightly edited version of the relevant entry from Sheldon. (I've removed the bits you won't be interested in)

    Mounting recessed-mounting calipers on older frames

    Rear:

    Front brakes for recessed mounting have bolts that are long enough to use them as rear brakes, if you substitute the appropriate washers and a 6 mm nut.
    Radiused washers must be used under the nut if the brake bridge has no flat mounting surfaces.

    Front: Here are 3 options:

    1.Drill out the back of the fork crown, just as is described above for the rear brake.
    That's it if you can get two front calipers. Sometimes, you may have to deal with a pair of brakes, with one long and one short bolt. If you used the long one in back, you can use the short one in front two different ways:

    2.Drill out the back of the fork crown and use an extra-long recessed nut. These nuts are commonly available for use in carbon-fiber forks.
    3.Use the short recessed nut, but don't put it through the back of the fork. Instead, push it up into the inside of the steerer from the bottom. You can reach a 5 mm Allen wrench in through the hole in the back of the fork, and poke the short caliper bolt in from the front.
    You may need to shorten the recessed nut slightly to get it to fit inside your steerer.

    [That's Sheldon's suggestion -- I can't figure how this option would secure the brake adequately against the tendency of braking to rotate the shoes forward.-- John Allen]
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,286
    http://sheldonbrown.com/calipers.html

    here's the link if you want the full SP and the pictures
  • lmk1lmk1 Posts: 95
    if your brakes are similiar to shimano then these will do the job:

    http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... 7s100p2341

    they were reviewed in april 2011 in cycling plus magazine. i just ordered 2 for a build i'm about to embark upon so hopefully they will work out well... good luck
  • redveeredvee Posts: 11,921
    redvee wrote:
    This might work but would mean taking the callipers apart.

    http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... 0s100p2341

    SNAP! I win
    lmk1 wrote:
    if your brakes are similiar to shimano then these will do the job:

    http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... 7s100p2341

    they were reviewed in april 2011 in cycling plus magazine. i just ordered 2 for a build i'm about to embark upon so hopefully they will work out well... good luck
    I've added a signature to prove it is still possible.
  • lmk1lmk1 Posts: 95
    never read through all the replys you do indeed win!
  • keef66 wrote:
    Have a read on Sheldon Brown's website on this.

    Simplest solution is to use the front brake on the back of the bike; the bolt is then long enough to go through the bridge and take an approprate m5 nut / washer (you might need to source or bodge the shaped spacers to fit either side of the bridge)

    Then drill out the hole at the back of the fork (NOT THE FRONT!) and fit the rear caliper using a longer hex bolt of the kind often used with chunky carbon forks. You may even be able to find a gold one!

    Keef66 - Your solution and links are great. I'm gona venture this way first. I've attached the 'front' brake to the back bridge. Then I'm using the 'back' brake (shorter bolt) on the front fork, but inserting the recessed nut through the UNDER side entry of the fork. - It fits, it works. All I need now is to find washers that have a curved side so the it all sits square against the forks curves. Shouldnt b to hard - any suggestions?
    I'll let you know how it all works out......
  • MattC59 wrote:
    You could always get a set of vintage brakes which you know will fit and get them anodized gold ? Not the ideal solution, but it's an option.

    Thanks MattC59. Your comments are noted...
  • + 1 for keef66 suggestion..

    Works a treat - you can insert the recessed nut through the UNDER side entry of the fork and if you're lucky you can still use the hex nut by poking the allen key through the hole on the rear of the fork.

    Have been running mine like this for the last couple of years and no problems at all.

    Now you just need the gold quick release and chain rings to finish it off...
  • kettrinboykettrinboy Posts: 619
    Steelysiu wrote:
    MattC59 wrote:
    You could always get a set of vintage brakes which you know will fit and get them anodized gold ? Not the ideal solution, but it's an option.

    Thanks MattC59. Your comments are noted...
    if you do this dont get a set of Weinmann 605,s like ive got on my Raleigh Record ace cos they are censored , in fact this thread has got me thinking of upgrading them.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    kettrinboy wrote:
    Steelysiu wrote:
    MattC59 wrote:
    You could always get a set of vintage brakes which you know will fit and get them anodized gold ? Not the ideal solution, but it's an option.

    Thanks MattC59. Your comments are noted...
    if you do this dont get a set of Weinmann 605,s like ive got on my Raleigh Record ace cos they are censored , in fact this thread has got me thinking of upgrading them.

    Darn tootin' right! Same issue on my RRA. Tempted to try to find new old stock ones as a replacement. Not going to get different brakes though. I only ride that bike in the dry anyway which helps.

    Amazing how duff the 605s are compared to the contemporary Weinmann centre pulls which are really pretty good (aside from not being able to set them so the pad clearance is low but that you can still get the wheel off without letting air out of the tube - the bridge wire needs loads of slack to get unhook it.....
    Faster than a tent.......
  • edhornbyedhornby Posts: 1,780
    I'd avoid the weinmanns, I've had them on bikes previously (had them on an old fork which was for the old 27in wheel size when I had a 700c wheel and needed the extra long drop) and they are rubbish, the length of the calliper is the reason they flex so they are just really spongy.... the bolt from spa cycles looks like the best option
    "I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, how good is that"
    --Jens Voight
  • I'd have thought it would be quite easy to get a machine shop to knock a couple up - from you're image it looks like a long standard M6 bolt with the head machined partly, and an M5 thread cut on the end? Though, I'm guessing that the lengths you've shown are cm not mm :D
    Has the head wind picked up or the tail wind dropped off???
  • secretsamsecretsam Posts: 4,549
    Rolf F wrote:
    Amazing how duff the 605s are compared to the contemporary Weinmann centre pulls which are really pretty good

    Really? I had them on my old steelie and have taken them off, utter garbage, replaced with cheap dual pivots which actually work! I still have the C/Ps, should really Flea-Bay them...

    It's just a hill. Get over it.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    secretsam wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Amazing how duff the 605s are compared to the contemporary Weinmann centre pulls which are really pretty good

    Really? I had them on my old steelie and have taken them off, utter garbage, replaced with cheap dual pivots which actually work! I still have the C/Ps, should really Flea-Bay them...

    I was somewhat gobsmacked really. I've been renovating a mates old Carlton Corsair. To be honest, I've not given them a proper pounding so maybe they will suffer 605 style flex but there is less to bend on them. Otherwise, the springs feel very strong, they pull evenly and they do seem to grip the rims well - but only if you set the clearance between pad and rim to be quite narrow. And then it is impossible to unhook the straddle cable with the wheel inplace - which you then can't remove without deflating the tyre. The ones I'm thinking of are the 1970s sort - possibly 750s??

    Certainly seem better than the 1990 Weinmann cantilevers on my Dawes (though those aren't brilliant.....)
    Faster than a tent.......
  • secretsamsecretsam Posts: 4,549
    Rolf F wrote:
    secretsam wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Amazing how duff the 605s are compared to the contemporary Weinmann centre pulls which are really pretty good

    Really? I had them on my old steelie and have taken them off, utter garbage, replaced with cheap dual pivots which actually work! I still have the C/Ps, should really Flea-Bay them...

    I was somewhat gobsmacked really. I've been renovating a mates old Carlton Corsair. To be honest, I've not given them a proper pounding so maybe they will suffer 605 style flex but there is less to bend on them. Otherwise, the springs feel very strong, they pull evenly and they do seem to grip the rims well - but only if you set the clearance between pad and rim to be quite narrow. And then it is impossible to unhook the straddle cable with the wheel inplace - which you then can't remove without deflating the tyre. The ones I'm thinking of are the 1970s sort - possibly 750s??

    Certainly seem better than the 1990 Weinmann cantilevers on my Dawes (though those aren't brilliant.....)

    Mine are the late model 633s (I think) - with the metal straddle bar instead of a cable - PM me if you're interested, they are of no use to me!

    It's just a hill. Get over it.
  • So its been a while since I've replied to this post, so I've either given up or resolved my problem. Thankfully it's the latter and I'm here to just thank all that replied and to close this post with a conclusion.

    BACK BRAKE
    - As advised through the Shelton Brown site. I used the front bold system for the back brake. - Thanks keef66.
    rearcaliper.jpg


    FRONT BRAKE
    - I replaced the front bolt with a 2-Step thread bolt purchased at http://www.spacycles.co.uk. - Thanks redvee.
    (This, in case anyone wants to know is at the widest part 7mm then tapers down to a 6mm (M7/M6) with a 51mm length. It also costs £10 with the P+P).
    2341-6892-main-img_1309-17.jpg
    frontcaliper.jpg


    Then it was just a matter of finding Spherical Washers so the nuts will fit tight against the front forks curves. And any old washers and bolt would do for the back set up.

    Thanks again all for the replies. I gots there in the end, well and truly sorted!
    I now have the problem of resisting any more gold additions....

    bike.jpg
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,286
    Oh I do like a happy ending!

    Thanks for taking the time / pics. Bike looks splendid 8)
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    Good effort! Nice to see a successful period renovation!

    And since you've bumped this, I can quote myself below.
    Rolf F wrote:
    secretsam wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Amazing how duff the 605s are compared to the contemporary Weinmann centre pulls which are really pretty good

    Really? I had them on my old steelie and have taken them off, utter garbage, replaced with cheap dual pivots which actually work! I still have the C/Ps, should really Flea-Bay them...

    I was somewhat gobsmacked really. I've been renovating a mates old Carlton Corsair. To be honest, I've not given them a proper pounding so maybe they will suffer 605 style flex but there is less to bend on them. Otherwise, the springs feel very strong, they pull evenly and they do seem to grip the rims well - but only if you set the clearance between pad and rim to be quite narrow. And then it is impossible to unhook the straddle cable with the wheel inplace - which you then can't remove without deflating the tyre. The ones I'm thinking of are the 1970s sort - possibly 750s??

    Certainly seem better than the 1990 Weinmann cantilevers on my Dawes (though those aren't brilliant.....)

    OK, now I have tried out the centre pulls on a proper, Yorkshire cross country route. And coming downhill into Glusburn via a 1 in four was certainly interesting. At that point, I really did learn that in some respects, aluminium and Dutch cheese can be very similar in properties. Amazing how much you can see the caliper arms bend.......

    So apologies to Secret Sam but he was right, I was wrong. Lucky I can't really see the bikes owner taking the Corsair up anywhere far enough to need to worry about the brakes on the following descent.......
    Faster than a tent.......
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