Chinarello... does anyone here have one?

Nevereverland

Hi guys,

I was just wondering if anyone around here has made a 'Chinarello' (Pinarello rip off using cheap carbon frame)??

I have gone through a lot of the threads on different sites, and there have been a couple of pictures posted. The owners are saying that the paint job is fine, everything went ok, etc etc.

However, I have not heard much about the quality of the ride. Would these be as good as the pinarellos?

Are these cheap frames actually the same as the pinarellos (eg are they just unbranded) or are they just replicas, where the manufacturer just copied the design.

I personally love the Dogma, the Team Sky one in particular and would love a frame similar, but if it is just a replica, I would rather invest in an established make. I havent seen any chinarello dogma team sky pictures though!

EKIMIKE

As far as i know such a 'Chinarello' doesn't actually exists. All i've ever seen is a very normal looking Chinese frame with the wobbly forks.

There is no exact/close replica as such.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Full-Carbon-R ... 876wt_1139

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Carbon-Road-Bike- ... 556wt_1139

Nevereverland

I've seen a couple, although I cant really tell if it is just a cheap fork with wobbly forks either. Common sense would tell me that it is just a look a like, but I'm just hoping that someone proves me wrong.

EKIMIKE

Any reason why that's a 'Chinarello' not a genuine Pinarello Dogma?

Nevereverland

Because it is in a thread where the person posting the picture is claiming to have made a Chinarello. He could be lying and could have put up a fake pic, but Im gonna assume he was telling the truth

EKIMIKE

Ah here you go:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2010-Brand-New-Fu ... 972wt_1139

Whether it's the same asymmetric design, who knows. And it definitely isn't the same 60HM1K carbon as the ad says 3K weave.

Nevereverland

Oh right, so the Dogma is a higher standard of Carbon? If thats the case, then the bike is just a rip off!

EKIMIKE

Well what did you expect? A genuine Pinarello product at 1/10th of the price? :roll:

Nevereverland

Perhaps it's more like the pinarello prince then!

Nevereverland

Well if I had known the answer, I wouldnt have asked the question in the 1st place

EKIMIKE

Definitely not like the Prince. They are so cheap for a reason - they're not top end kit. Equally Pinarello's are overly expensive for a reason - marketing and R&D costs. Even if Pinarello's weren't over priced then they'd cost more than 'Chinarello's' because they use higher quality carbon - remember the Prince was top dog before the Dogma.

On the other hand the Chinese frames be more than ok for your needs as the massive thread on here suggests.

What the Chinese factories are doing in this case is putting lower quality carbon, but still perfectly fine, into the same mould (even that might not be the case!). They may or may not be taking other short-cuts. Who knows. The outcomes in terms of 'performance' - again, who knows?

Either way if you buy from a Chinese dealer on eBay you're going to get a 'Chinese frame of eBay' frame NOT an un-painted Pinarello Dogma/Prince. Surely you understand that? Then again you would be asking the question, as you said. At least it's been explained now.

Nevereverland

Yeah that all makes sense, thanks for helping me out. I can rule one out now!

desweller

On the other hand, at least on ebay you can make an assessment of how satisfied a vendor's customers are thanks to the feedback system. With the likes of the big brands you're reliant on word of mouth from a few individuals and the marketing departments of those brands.

The Chinese ebay sellers seem to be quite good, looking at their feedback.

Squillinossett

I must say, I have been tempted to swap out my Trek 1.5 frame on my winter ride to one of these frames, as they tend to get very good reviews when I have looked them up on other websites.

EKIMIKE

They're definitely worth a look IMO.

pilot_pete

And it definitely isn't the same 60HM1K carbon as the ad says 3K weave.

Well, Pinarello do make frames in 30HM12K, my FP3 is. See http://www.pinarello.com/eng/fp4_514.php, the current FPQuattro and FP3 use that weave.

However, if you look at the weave on the frame on a 30HM12K Pina it doesn't look like that Chinese one......

PP

EKIMIKE

That's because the 30HM12K Pina is a 12K (chunkier) weave and the Chinese one is a 3K (smaller) weave.

Point is, the guy wants a Dogma which uses 1K (smallest) weave which is one of only 4 or 5 bikes in the world produced with 1K weave. So it's a Pina or nothing in that respect. The Chinese won't be knocking out frames for £300 in 1K weave - it's damn expensive stuff from what i gather.

TMR

EKIMIKE wrote:

Well what did you expect? A genuine Pinarello product at 1/10th of the price? :roll:

Given the frame cost less than £200 to make, perhaps he expected a genuine Pinarello at 1/10th of the mark up? :roll:

EKIMIKE

Sorry but it costs more than £200 for Pinarello to make Dogma's. Obviously the 3.5K price is absurd! But, they will have had to pay for the tooling which is very expensive and they are definitely using top end, high spec carbon fibre - not your standard 3K weave. Factor in the paint job (albeit not alot), advertising, sponsorships, then shipping half way round the world to dealers and you start to see why you're paying more.

Are you really naive enough to think that Pinarello would happily let a Chinese manufacturer sell and exact copy, down to the carbon/weave, for £200?

EKIMIKE

If we were talking a Cube Agree GTC Pro/FM015 or De Rosa/FM838 then you'd have a perfectly valid point.

cal_stewart

sure there was a theard on weight weenies with a bloke selling rebrand dogmas from taiwan.

clx1

If people want to buy what appears to be a perfectly good chinese frame then good luck to them.
If those same people then try to kid themselves that they have bought something similar to a Pinarello Dogma they are either very naive or plain stupid.

Squillinossett

I dont think anyone is really thinking they are getting a dogma for £200, if that were the case no one would buy a dogma.

But, for £200-£300 alot of these frames seem unbeatable, they are made in the factory as big brands, just with lower rated carbon, but for winter duties in my case, i wouldnt want to be riding a £3k frame. Or even a £1k frame for that matter...

desweller

I think the biggest problem with buying any of these frames are not quality related. You won't be able to test ride, so confirmation of fit will be necessarily be hit-and-miss (and fit is obviously vastly more important than frame material, IMO).

Of course, this is true of any frame ordered from abroad.

TMR

EKIMIKE wrote:

Sorry but it costs more than £200 for Pinarello to make Dogma's. Obviously the 3.5K price is absurd! But, they will have had to pay for the tooling which is very expensive and they are definitely using top end, high spec carbon fibre - not your standard 3K weave. Factor in the paint job (albeit not alot), advertising, sponsorships, then shipping half way round the world to dealers and you start to see why you're paying more.

Are you really naive enough to think that Pinarello would happily let a Chinese manufacturer sell and exact copy, down to the carbon/weave, for £200?

My quoted figure may not be exactly on the money, but I doubt it's far off. I suspect that you'd be surprised how little it costs Pinarello to make a Dogma. The tooling is a one off cost which would be recouped very quickly, and while they may be using the best carbon it's still not that expensive. The other issues you quoted are business costs, not manufacturing costs, so serve no place in this discussion.

I'm far from naive, quite the opposite in fact. I have no intention of getting involved in the Chinese replica argument, that wasn't what my post was about. I was simply passing comment that the pricing of high end bikes takes the p*ss, and really doesn't bear scrutiny.

ilm_zero7

lime green too !

http://www.aliexpress.com/fm-store/9007 ... Frame.html

wicked

EKIMIKE wrote:

Sorry but it costs more than £200 for Pinarello to make Dogma's. Obviously the 3.5K price is absurd! But, they will have had to pay for the tooling which is very expensive and they are definitely using top end, high spec carbon fibre - not your standard 3K weave. Factor in the paint job (albeit not alot), advertising, sponsorships, then shipping half way round the world to dealers and you start to see why you're paying more.

Are you really naive enough to think that Pinarello would happily let a Chinese manufacturer sell and exact copy, down to the carbon/weave, for £200?

How do you know how much a Dogma costs to make? That kind of information is kept hush hush because if we knew no-one would buy one! I bet it is not far off £250 and am pretty confident that it will a lot closer to £250 than £3500!
The mark up on these frames is outrageous but then I suppose someone has to pay for all the sponsorship of Movistar and Sky

EKIMIKE

No-where am i professing to know the true cost of manufacturing a Dogma frame. But surely you can appreciate that using 60HM1K carbon as opposed to the standard 3K stuff used for these Chinese frames will cost more? It's fact. It shouldn't even be a question. As a commodity 1K weave CF costs more than 3K or 12K. Just look at the few bikes that are manufactured using 1K weave CF and notice how they're all top end. Then you have the paint job, which even the Chinese will charge you extra for. However i appreciate that paint is only a fraction of the overall cost - it still counts!

It seems clear we all agree on one thing at least - top end frames such as the Dogma hold extortionate prices. I will always maintain that.

Sorry but i have to disagree The Mad Rapper - business costs do count in this case. We are consumers buying a finished product. You can guarantee that if the Chinese eBay sellers had a double spread advert if every months ProCycling their prices would go up. End of.

Please note, i'm not trying to dissuade anyone from buying one of these Chinese frames. Great as Squill says for most of us for general riding. You're running a little risk on warranty but getting a solid product for relatively little money. Just don't kid yourselves as the OP had into thinking you'll get the exact same quality product for 1/10th the price, even if you can only think in terms of manufacturing costs alone!

Nevereverland

Just don't kid yourselves as the OP had into thinking you'll get the exact same quality product for 1/10th the price

Hold your horses, I never said that they were the same, I asked if they were the same. Big difference!