Horse Racing

Tom Butcher
Tom Butcher Posts: 3,830
edited March 2011 in The bottom bracket
I'm not really one for horse races but caught the Gold Cup on TV this afternoon.

Couldn't help thinking - why was Kauto Star ridden on the front for most of the race - isn't it like cycling where unless you are going to make a break you are best to keep your nose out of the wind until the sprint ? OK so maybe some horses like a decent pace, keep out of danger etc but I'd still have thought if you just sit on the front the whole way you aren't going to win unless your horse is a lot stronger than the rest.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.

Comments

  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    I know exactly what you mean. I was at Cheltenham today and at one point during the Gold Cup I actually said "What the hell are you doing, don't you watch cycling" - my horse bolted off like some Frenchman on a doomed breakaway. I knew he wasn't going to win before they got to the first fence.

    I had two winners and for the first one I did think, 'good positioning, that's where Cav would be'.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Ollieda
    Ollieda Posts: 1,010
    different horses have diferent preferences for where they like to run, some like to power from the front the whole way and then lost spirit when others come up on them, some like to hold back and power through. it's very hard to teach an animal to go against what it likes and it's normally just easier to stick with what it knows.

    Kauto has always liked the front, I remember seeing him when he was younger and had so much power he would just leave the rest of the field from the off and no one would ever catch him......had such a lead in one race when he threw off his jockey on a fall, jockey remounted and Kauto came second by the tiniest of margins, was amazing!
  • northernneil
    northernneil Posts: 1,549
    Chris Hoy likes to go to the front and stay there ....
  • scwxx77
    scwxx77 Posts: 1,469
    Horse racing has more in common with cyclocross than road racing I'd imagine.
    Winner: PTP Vuelta 2007 :wink:
  • Smokin Joe
    Smokin Joe Posts: 2,706
    Although there is an aerodynamic benefit from sitting on a wheel I reckon 50% of whatever you gain is psychological, making it easier to pace yourself and time your effort to get the jump on the rider in front who also has the worry of what you are doing.

    Animals don't think like that, they just run and probably don't even worry about finishing in front of another horse, bearing in mind they don't even know the race distance.
  • Ollieda
    Ollieda Posts: 1,010
    Smokin Joe wrote:
    Animals don't think like that, they just run and probably don't even worry about finishing in front of another horse, bearing in mind they don't even know the race distance.

    Whilst they may not "worry" about finishing in front of another horse, a lot of them lose the will to race when they are getting tired and get overtaken, hence towards the end of a race those not in the lead group will slow right down and not put in full effort (admitdly part of this is also because jockeys realise they are outside of a money winning slot and will slack off on the horse to preserve energy. It's not as obvious in jump but if you watch flat you will see the horses just lose heart more obviously to the extent that some have been known to go down to a trot after a few have passed!

    Also the horses are aware of the race distance, they won't know exactly that a race is X miles X furlongs but they will know which races are longer and which races are shorter based on the schedule they are trained for, they also react to markers they can see and actions of jockeys to tell when they are on the final straight and have to give it their all.

    They are actually fairly intelligent animals!
  • shouldbeinbed
    shouldbeinbed Posts: 2,660
    Ollieda wrote:
    Whilst they may not "worry" about finishing in front of another horse, a lot of them lose the will to race when they are getting tired and get overtaken, hence towards the end of a race those not in the lead group will slow right down and not put in full effort (admitdly part of this is also because jockeys realise they are outside of a money winning slot and will slack off on the horse to preserve energy. It's not as obvious in jump but if you watch flat you will see the horses just lose heart more obviously to the extent that some have been known to go down to a trot after a few have passed!

    that makes sense, Renshaw doesn't sprint over the line after Cav and the peloton don't fight for 43rd place
  • Tom Butcher
    Tom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    Hmmm, still not convinced. OK so some horses may like to run at the front - but isn't that what the jockey is there for - so they don't just run where they like but where they are most likely to win. I take the point that some may adjust to running in the middle of the group better than others but the front runners have to be using a fair bit more energy than the ones in the middle. I reckon if Kauto Star ran a time trial against the winner then the older horse would probably win - it has to be worth at least that much to sit in a group. It's not really like cyclocross because horses travel a lot faster than cyclocross riders - and even cross riders will get a fair benefit from drafting on fast sections.

    I can assure anyone that the benefit of sitting in a bunch is not 50% psychological - if anything it's psychologically easier to sit on the front - nothing to worry about other than the fact you are doing 30% more work!
    it's a hard life if you don't weaken.
  • Ollieda
    Ollieda Posts: 1,010
    The jockey is there to control the horse to a certain extent but if a horse is one that psychologically likes to sit the race out on the front and power through then not letting him do that is going against what it wants to do so it won't run as well, it seems odd but with horses you have to accept to a certain extent that the animal will run whats best for it and the jockey aids and slightly adapts for the tatical situation, they don't teach the horse to ride in a different way.

    The only way I can think to losely connect to cycling is how cyclist are born to be a cycling type - Cav is a born sprinter, if he had spent his career trying to be a climber then he would be going against his body type and would be making things a lot harder for himself. Obviously that is open to interpretation and argument but its the nearest comparison i can think of!

    Not sure what you mean by KS losing a time trial to the older winner. Long Run is a younger horse, but I imagine in a TT with just those two KS would have the upper hand but its purely speculative, horse racing is a highly psychological event for the horse and when you throw hurdles in anything can happen - hence the bookies love it so much!
  • Tom Butcher
    Tom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    I mean if Kauto Star were in a time trial against the horse that did win (forgot its name which is why I called it the winner instead) then Kauto star would have won. In other words the stronger horse lost because it ran on the front for a lot longer.
    it's a hard life if you don't weaken.
  • Ollieda
    Ollieda Posts: 1,010
    ahh right, understood you now. I agree, I think KS would win if they were to face off in a TT.

    It was Long Run that won it........the amount of crappy jokes I heard after that as I was cashing peoples bets "That certainly was a Long Run. ha ha ha ha ha" :roll:
  • *AL*
    *AL* Posts: 1,185
    Tom Butcher wrote:
    Couldn't help thinking - why was Kauto Star ridden on the front for most of the race.

    Because Kauto's owner had a large wedge riding on another horse ?

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