libiya-no fly zone

bearfraser

Much though i fully agree with the "U.N." resolution and the need to support the opposition in Libiya . Just who is going to pay for all this Gunship politics ?????????????

rick_chasey

Members of the UN?

EKE_38BPM

The Libyan government has just called a cease-fire from bombing the bejesus out of their own people.

Is it just me, or do other people think that Britain and America call for military intervention in various conflicts around the world partly out of a genuine desire to do good and partly to give their military forces something to do (extreme live fire exercises) as well as an advertising campaign for their arms industries.

Dodgy dictator: "Well, I like the look of your weapon system, but is it really any good?"
Arms dealer: "Good?!? Did you see what it did to the Campagnolists!"
Dodgy dictator: "You make a good point. I'll take $5Billion worth please."
Arms dealer: "Brilliant. Now, can I interest you in this new weapon system, it made mince meat out of the SRAMites and the Shimanoists."
Dodgy dictator: "Oooh, shiny. Throw a couple extra in free and I'll take 8"
Arms dealer: "Its a deal. Nice doing business with you."

Am I too cynical?

rick_chasey

EKE_38BPM wrote:

The Libyan government has just called a cease-fire from bombing the bejesus out of their own people.

Is it just me, or do other people think that Britain and America call for military intervention in various conflicts around the world partly out of a genuine desire to do good and partly to give their military forces something to do (extreme live fire exercises) as well as an advertising campaign for their arms industries.

Dodgy dictator: "Well, I like the look of your weapon system, but is it really any good?"
Arms dealer: "Good?!? Did you see what it did to the Campagnolists!"
Dodgy dictator: "You make a good point. I'll take $5Billion worth please."
Arms dealer: "Brilliant. Now, can I interest you in this new weapon system, it made mince meat out of the SRAMites and the Shimanoists."
Dodgy dictator: "Oooh, shiny. Throw a couple extra in free and I'll take 8"
Arms dealer: "Its a deal. Nice doing business with you."

Am I too cynical?

Yeah you are too cynical.

War for anyone concerned is pretty horrific. It's not a decision that's taken lightly.

EKE_38BPM

Apart from the arm industry.

The inventor of the machine gun (Hyram Maxim I think) was advised to invent a way to enable Europeans to kill each other more efficiently if he wanted to make some real money.
Shortly after he invented the machine gun, and sold them to both Germany and the Allies in WWI.

The first armoured cars were based on Rolls Royces. They still make stuff for the military today.

Someone with more knowledge of military history could give more examples, I'm sure.

War: What is it good for?
Making money for the arms trade!

brin

There are small protests in Saudi Arabia, if these escalate will the UN/USA intervene there too? i very much doubt it.

rick_chasey

brin wrote:

There are small protests in Saudi Arabia, if these escalate will the UN/USA intervene there too? i very much doubt it.

Escalating protests are a little different to using fighter planes to bomb citizens.

brin

Sure i saw on the News other night, tanks on the streets of Saudi?

One Man And His Bike

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Is it just me, or do other people think that Britain and America call for military intervention in various conflicts around the world partly out of a genuine desire to do good and partly to give their military forces something to do (extreme live fire exercises) as well as an advertising campaign for their arms industries.

Dunno about the arms trade part but the live fire exercises I took part in when I was in the Army were realistic enough without needing live people to aim at if you catch my drift.

I took part in a few and saw good amounts of both the Jordanian and Kuwaiti deserts blow to bits and shot to sh1t while we spent a month out there going through live fire drills up to and including battalion level attacks.

I've witnessed a joint US + British air power demo and to be honest the stuff you actually see these days on CNN and the BBC is is not even close to the amount of rain these guys can bring if they are let off the leash.

Everything is now about proportionate damage or how much mitigation after the fact is required with regards casualties or civilians being involved or injured.

& yes, it was Maxim that invented the modern day machine gun.
I'm glad I got out of the infantry though as I dread the day these things start getting sold to everyone and anyone, 1 million rounds per minute effective fire = dead platoon in 1 second...

guinea

Two faced barstewards.

Bahrain next then? They've also imported troop to kill civilians.

Thought not.

afx237vi

Rick Chasey wrote:

brin wrote:

There are small protests in Saudi Arabia, if these escalate will the UN/USA intervene there too? i very much doubt it.

Escalating protests are a little different to using fighter planes to bomb citizens.

Where do you draw the line? Browsing the BBC website a few minutes ago :-

- 39 protesters shot dead in Yemen
- Military takeover of hospitals, arbitary arrest of opposition leaders, more violence in Bahrain

What does the UN do? Say you can oppress and use violence against your own citizens, but as long as you don't do it with airstrikes, that's OK?

I don't know what the answer is, btw.

EKE_38BPM

I went to an arms exhibition and saw that thing. Very scary.

If anyone was thinking that I'm some kind of 'gun nut', I'm not. I've never even touched a firearm.

I do all of my killing with my bare hands!

rick_chasey

afx237vi wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

brin wrote:

There are small protests in Saudi Arabia, if these escalate will the UN/USA intervene there too? i very much doubt it.

Escalating protests are a little different to using fighter planes to bomb citizens.

Where do you draw the line? Browsing the BBC website a few minutes ago :-

- 39 protesters shot dead in Yemen
- Military takeover of hospitals, arbitary arrest of opposition leaders, more violence in Bahrain

What does the UN do? Say you can oppress and use violence against your own citizens, but as long as you don't do it with airstrikes, that's OK?

I don't know what the answer is, btw.

That's not what I meant - wasn't aware there was killing of the protesters elsewhere. What I meant was, an angry mob is not a pretext for military intervention.

As ever, and I seem to be saying this a lot at the moment, it's all about context. The context of Libya, to some people anyway, it makes sense to support limited military intervention (though perhaps too late). In Yemen etc it's a different context. Rebels haven't taken large parts of the country, and there isn't civil war.

afx237vi

Rick Chasey wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

brin wrote:

There are small protests in Saudi Arabia, if these escalate will the UN/USA intervene there too? i very much doubt it.

Escalating protests are a little different to using fighter planes to bomb citizens.

Where do you draw the line? Browsing the BBC website a few minutes ago :-

- 39 protesters shot dead in Yemen
- Military takeover of hospitals, arbitary arrest of opposition leaders, more violence in Bahrain

What does the UN do? Say you can oppress and use violence against your own citizens, but as long as you don't do it with airstrikes, that's OK?

I don't know what the answer is, btw.

That's not what I meant - wasn't aware there was killing of the protesters elsewhere. What I meant was, an angry mob is not a pretext for military intervention.

As ever, and I seem to be saying this a lot at the moment, it's all about context. The context of Libya, to some people anyway, it makes sense to support limited military intervention (though perhaps too late). In Yemen etc it's a different context. Rebels haven't taken large parts of the country, and there isn't civil war.

I don't think brin meant that an angry mob was a pretext for military intervention either. I read it as if the protests escalate and turn ugly, then the UN would need to intervene in order to protect the civilian protesters (it's a fine line as to when a protester becomes a rebel, isn't it?), which is the reason they've used in Libya.

I don't see much difference between Libya and Yemen apart from the scale. Violent oppression of demonstrators is against most international laws, whatever weapons you use to do it.

The easiest way out for most of the despots in North Africa and the Middle East at the moment is probably to quickly and brutally crush the opposition forces and then say "hey, we're calling a ceasefire". If it works for Gaddafi...