Right of Way vehicle turnijg right over cycle lane?

t4tomo

A "Who has right of way?" question.

Ok bear with me whilst I describe the layout.

Coming down from Euston down Gordon Street at the end of which I turn right onto the 2 way cycle lane that runs along what I thing is briefly Byng Place and then becomes Torrington Place. The cycle lane is on my side of Byng Place so I don't have to cross any traffic, only give way to the bikes already on the cycle lane. But there is also traffic queuing to turn right into Gordon Street, across the cycle lane.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

Now the traffic turning into Gordon street gives way to cycle lane traffic, but as soon as there is a gap, I want to turn right onto the cycle lane and the traffic wants to turn right across the cycle lane , both of us heading across each others path.

This morning I nudged into the cycle lane, let a waiting taxi turn right in front of me and then set off, only to be honked at by a lorry wanting to follow the taxi. I gave him short shrift telling him he needs to give way to the cycle lane.

Was I right? As soon as I've set off I'm on the cycle lane, but as we are both waiting for a gap in the cycle lane traffic, I'm not actually on the cycle lane.

Anyone got a view?

Mr Plum

As the traffic is turning across the cycle lane, I would guess that it is them that has to give way to cyclists who are using the cycle lane. I can't be sure of this though as your googlemaps link doesn't link to the area.

rjsterry

Link needs fixing. You need to use the 'link' button on the RHS of the Googlemaps page, rather than copy and paste the page address.

I'm not a fan of this two-way cycle lane, partly because of the confusion that the 'contraflow' west bound cycle lane causes. As for who has right of way, I'm not sure as you are both starting from behind a give way line. A bad bit of road design as it just isn't clear (and it really should be obvious).

ETA: here's the proper link

If you are already on the cycle lane then they should give way to you, but there's no pint picking a fight with an HGV

Mr Plum

OK I've just found the area you're talking about (I'm having a slow morning :P). -

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sourc ... 1,,0,10.11 -

To turn right into Gordon Street from Gordon Square there are clear give way markings/lines on the road surface. These are after the point at which you would have turned right onto the 2 way cycle lane so it is the traffic turning into Gordon Street that would have to give way to you. However, there's no point being right but dead...

t4tomo

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sourc ... 31.53,,0,5

Try that as a link,

I would be turning from the bottom right of picture to follow the lass in the fluro jacket, cars turning from bottom centre of picture where the arrow on the road is

or this view is from my point of view

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sourc ... 54.94,,0,5

imagine the pink taxi is actually in the turning right lane and about to turn right

Paulie W

It's not clear to me why you would have right of way in that situation since in all other similar situations you would have to wait for the car turning

Edit: OK, I see what you mean now.

Paulie W

That seems a needlessly complicated set of road markings. Is that bit of road ever that busy? It certainly never used to be.

Soul Boy

Never liked that junction myself, vehicles turning in often have a resticted view and don't see the cycle lane until the last second. Possibly they are keeping an eye on approaching traffic or are allowed to turn right by traffic queuing in the opposite direction, then are confronted by a 2 way cycle lane. Its a bad design.

Not much help I know, but this junction must be approached with extreme caution. Be careful picking fights with the front of lorries.

keyser__soze

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sourc ... 5,,0,14.84

Right?

Unless there was a big gap I'd have given way. I think the law is that at a junction such as this where you're faced with double broken white lines, this means give way to cars already on the road you're joining. HC 172. The cycle lane forms part of the road. There's a similar marker where the lorry would have turned, but I'd imagine vehicles (and possibly insurance/police) would take this as indication vehicles turning right had to give way to cycles already on the cycle lane. As it's an arguable case, you're probably off being safe rather than right and yielding to the lorry.

TommyEss

I know the area well - and as others have said, yes, you're right, but there's no point risking your life to prove it. Take it easy, accept that all the traffic is "in a hurry doing extremely important stuff that absolutely cannot wait" and keep your eyes and ears open.

t4tomo

I agree its a crap bit of road design. its normally quite busy on a morning. and the cycle lane is well enough used to ensure there are normally cars waiting to turn right.

I normaly use the "alternative" principal in such ambiguous situations, let the first car turn and then set off. The second one is stationery behind it so to be honest they'd have to get a flyer to hit you.

I doubt this morning the lorry had to even decelerate let alone brake to let me go by but still felt the need to honk.

Since they've redone the paving on the next corner they now have a unmarked 2 lane cycle lane on an area that sometimes is bsuy with pedestrians - in the summer an icecream van often parks there!

Brainless road design

ince

Looking at the image. Either side of the cycle lane there is a broken white line. To me this is a give way line and so any traffic turning across the carriageway must give way.

Dudu

So far as I can tell, traffic (including you) turning from Gordon Sq into Byng Pl should give way to cyclists already on the cycle lane. I go this way (usually riding from King's Crustacean to Vauxhall) occasionally and they always give way to me (although a Hard Stare is sometimes required).

If you're turning right from Gordon Sq onto the cycle lane in Byng Pl, your best bet is to approach the junction on the right of any motor traffic or near the centre line of the road, giving way to any cycles on the cycle lane. Then there are no conflicting movements with motors.

t4tomo

Dudu wrote:

If you're turning right from Gordon Sq onto the cycle lane in Byng Pl, your best bet is to approach the junction on the right of any motor traffic or near the centre line of the road, giving way to any cycles on the cycle lane. Then there are no conflicting movements with motors.

As stated above thats exactly what I do, but cars turning right from Byng place sometimes think they have ROW presumably because I've just joined the cycle lane.

if there are only cycles coming from my left , then I can turn right into the contraflow cycle lane, ride in the wrong cycle lane for a while until it all merges on the unmarked piece on the corner.

However if there are cycle coming from my right then thats not an option

snooks

Bit confusing this one

Two scenarios:
1: If you take away the cycle lane and call Bying place a one way street. When you come to the end of Gordon St you would have to give way as it is you that is joining the main road. The cars are already on the main road and are turning off it.

If you were already on the cycle lane and a car etc wanting to cross, it would have to give way to you. However you aren't on the cycle lane, you're behind the broken double lines.

If you were in a car (on Gordon St) you wouldn't pull out and expect the cars turning right to give way to you. Would you?

2: BUT if you were to make the cycle lane into the equivalent of the two way road and the cars would have to cross that road to get into Gordon Street, then if you can get across to the right hand lane then you would have right of way.

So if you're a car driver turning right into Gordon Street you see yourself in the first scenario, and if you're a cyclist turning out of Gordon Street you see the second.

If you could join the cycle lane before the junction there would be no doubts, but it does seem a junction of fukwitery

Drysuitdiver

nobody has right of way.

you should always give way if it will prevent danger occuring .

bobgfish

You need to live in the Netherlands. Rules are simples. Give way to the right. It doesn't matter what the street is or how busy always give way to the right. Eena side street with a main street. The other rule is the cyclist is always right espcially when in a city and on the bike lane. Doesn't mean you shouldn't be careful

(I'm sure someone will jump on and correct me. But in general unless there is a give way you always give to the right)

dondare

The cycle lane in Byng Place is a good example of why cycle lanes are a Crock of 5hit.
Cyclists would do themselves and everyone else a favour if they ignored it and used the correct side of the road.

dondare

Drysuitdiver wrote:

nobody has right of way.

you should always give way if it will prevent danger occuring .

Actually everyone has right of way.The question should be "Who has priority?"

Specialized Needs

dondare wrote:

The cycle lane in Byng Place is a good example of why cycle lanes are a Crock of 5hit.
Cyclists would do themselves and everyone else a favour if they ignored it and used the correct side of the road.

True, westbound, but I presume it is convenient eastbound (as a contraflow to the one way street)?

Specialized Needs

Specialized Needs wrote:

dondare wrote:

The cycle lane in Byng Place is a good example of why cycle lanes are a Crock of 5hit.
Cyclists would do themselves and everyone else a favour if they ignored it and used the correct side of the road.

True, westbound, but I presume it is convenient eastbound (as a contraflow to the one way street)?

Or is it two way there? If so, totally agree.

dondare

It's one-way between TCR and Gower Street. It could be two-way for all traffic if the segregated cycle-lane was removed.