OT: Swimmers?

iPete

Any regular swimmers amongst the commuters?

Have entered an Olympic distance Tri in July & realised last week that I can't swim lol, been 5 times in the last 8 days but its slow progress!

Had a lesson to work on technique but I'm always short of breathe after 50 metres, do you eventually click and grow aqua lungs?

Its am open water sea swim btw :shock:

Tips welcome/needed!

greg66_tri_v2.0

Really can't swim, or can't do it so you look like what you're doing? If the former, you may have bitten off more than you can chew.

You're out of breath because it's about the only exercise that requires you to hold your breath while you do it. Breathing whilst swimming is about about timing. First tip is to exhale underwater. That way you breathe in while your mouth's out, and don't waste time breathing out.

Next tip is less is more. Go to the pet shop. Stare at the fish in the fish tank. Look at how little they move their bodies, yet how much they move through the water. Swimming is about keeping everything that doesn't have to propel you as still and balanced as you can, whilst the bits of you that have to do the propelling do their job. If you're thrashing around moving and twisting more than you have to, you're wasting energy and depleting your oxygen.

LiTs will probably be along soon. Listen to her.

iPete

Like the fish idea, I'll certainly think about my wasted energy when I hit the pool tomorrow. It's more the later, I could probably breast stroke the distance with little training but that would be painfully slow!

Been working on breathing every 3 strokes, it's hard to keep a rhythm in a 25m pool and get out of breathe after a turn around, it's getting better but I've swallowed way to much pool water!

I'll just have to keep going at it till my breathing catches up, will start open water at the end of April, hopefully that'll be better than a tiny pool!

asprilla

Like cycling, you've just got to do it. If you are out of breath then you need to slow down, particularly if you are going to be doing 1.5km.

The best swimming exercise you can do for tri trainingi is breathing pyramids; 10 lengths breathing every stroke, 10 every 2 strokes. 10 eveery 3 and 10 every 4. The reverse it and come back down again.

Open water swimming gets pretty crowded and you've got to learn to breath when you can. Also, when the lakes open around April, book yourself and open water training session.

rudyardmtb

Honestly, join a club. Most clubs have adult swimming with coaches who are a god send. As a rule if you explain to them what you are training for they will help you out because they love novices and using their knowledge in helping people out.

If you can't, for whatever reason make the times then find someone who can give you a couple of individual lessons to show you how to improve your technique, swimming for tri's is knackering as you can waste so much energy with poor technique.

Chris

dhope

iPete wrote:

Any regular swimmers amongst the commuters?

Have entered an Olympic distance Tri in July & realised last week that I can't swim lol, been 5 times in the last 8 days but its slow progress!

Had a lesson to work on technique but I'm always short of breathe after 50 metres, do you eventually click and grow aqua lungs?

Its am open water sea swim btw :shock:

Tips welcome/needed!

This, completely.
Signed up for Olympic Tri in July, can't swim (well can but rubbish).
London Tri?

pitchshifter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax77_hHq9Dc Watch and copy...

Couldn't freestyle more than two lengths without gasping for air, ended up doing the london tri swim in 25 mins, takes practice. Keep your legs high and the breathing will come eventually..

Agent57

I can't swim. Well, I can float on my back in calm water. For that reason, I wouldn't enter an event that involved swimming.

Greg T

Asprilla wrote:

The best swimming exercise you can do for tri trainingi is breathing pyramids; 10 lengths breathing every stroke, 10 every 2 strokes. 10 eveery 3 and 10 every 4. The reverse it and come back down again.

That is just crazy talk . . . . .

Swimming away from a sinking ship is the only acceptable exercuse for swimming but unless you live in Black and White it's not very likely.....

edited to add

Exercuse is a typo . . . However I like it

Exercuse - stuff you do when exercise gets too hard and you need a break - checking your brakes / doing your shoe laces and that great chestnut of the the tired - stretching

Clever Pun

with swimming in tri you'll be using your arms much more than your legs, you want to save them for the the other 2/3rds of the race.

Maybe even do some lengths with a float between your legs to get the shoulders and arms working harder.

just keep at it, you'll progress. Open water is much harder then pool swimming, so you'll want to do a couple of open water swims so you've got a rough idea of what it'll be like

lost_in_thought

Good tips above...

Technique can be the cause of breathing issues, I assume you're doing freestyle, so the pointers below apply to it...

Swimming-related essay to follow...

- shoulder rotation -

Shoulder rotation is important to a good, stable stroke and also makes the breathing motion far more efficient. Try looking behind you to either side without moving your shoulders... and now with... see what I mean? It's one thing a lot of novice swimmers lack, and also makes your stroke weaker as you're only engaging the relatively puny arm muscles. Good tips to encourage shoulder rotation are to ensure you're stabbing forward as far as possible on each stroke, and making an 's' shape as you pull back all the way to the hip. Also, lift your elbows - you don't want to be barely skimming the water with your arms. (EDIT: A good way to think about it is that your spine is an axle around which your torso is moving. Keep your head and spine stable.) Phelps, in the clip, is breathing to the same side every 2 strokes which is discouraged as it leads to an imbalanced stroke, but it works for him and others! In rough water, this is even more important. Ian Thorpe shows it off well here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8qUpeDb ... re=related

- breath speed/efficiency -

So you've got your mouth out of the water! w00t! You should, by the way, ideally leave one eye in the water and lift your chin out. Don't worry too much about that though! Now, in order to maintain your stroke, you only have a short time to breathe in, so you need to be sucking in as much air as is humanly possible in that time. You need bigger lungs and faster breaths! Definitely, definitely breathe out when your head's underwater. Through your nose is the way to go. When you're sitting at your desk practice taking huge breaths as fast as possible, and look up techniques for improving lung capacity.

- kicking -

This has been mentioned above... but kick! Don't, however, kick like some manner of outboard motor. Kicking doesn't provide that much propulsion, but does provide a hell of a lot of assistance with flotation of your legs. Look how flat ol' Phelpsy is in the water from side on. Many novice swimmers either rely too much on their legs or don't use them enough. Your kick should be from the hip - look at those quad and glute muscles - don't you want them to be on your side? The lower leg shound be relaxed with the toe pointed, and it should feel like a 'shaking out' motion. Think of a whip vs a crop. You want to be the whip. However, the principal propulsion comes from your arms - if your legs are pushing you along too much, work on your arms. Use pullbuoys to find out how it should feel. (EDIT - flippers are good for kick technique too - alas, many pools won't let you use them)

- turns -

You mention struggling with turns. Are you trying to tumble turn? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJSKovtwbVU) If so - why? You sure won't be doing that in open water with hundreds of people around you. Just do an open turn, keep your legs tucked up and you'll be better off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx31AJjif0o

That's quite enough from me. I can bore you with swimming technique for hours on end, hours I tell you!

Can you tell I used to swim a bit? :P

greg66_tri_v2.0

lost_in_thought wrote:

as you're only engaging the relatively puny arm muscles

Woman, have you NO observational skilz?

This is cycling forum. You won't find a better display of guns this side of the changing rooms at this year's Mr. Universe.

Unless you mean "relative" to our space-time continuum bending quads and glutes, of course...

dhope

lost_in_thought wrote:

I can bore you with swimming technique for hours on end, hours I tell you!

<grabs pen>
Uh huh, keep going. I only have 4 and a half months to go from thrashing wildly to thrashing slightly less wildly.

lost_in_thought

Greg66 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

as you're only engaging the relatively puny arm muscles

Woman, have you NO observational skilz?

This is cycling forum. You won't find a better display of guns this side of the changing rooms at this year's Mr. Universe.

Unless you mean "relative" to our space-time continuum bending quads and glutes, of course...

Where can I obtain tickets to this gun show?

lost_in_thought

dhope wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

I can bore you with swimming technique for hours on end, hours I tell you!

<grabs pen>
Uh huh, keep going. I only have 4 and a half months to go from thrashing wildly to thrashing slightly less wildly.

It's hard to tell what the problems are without more details! Start with the stuff from the above essay...

asprilla

What LiT said, but with the exercise I mentioned (particularly in open water you need to be able to vary your breathing).

I used to swim at county level and I used to coach stroke correction.

EKE_38BPM

Deadeyebumhole wrote:

Exercuse - stuff you do when exercise gets too hard and you need a break - checking your brakes / doing your shoe laces and that great chestnut of the the tired - stretching

Nice one DEBH, I like that a lot.

I swim like a stone. If its a matter of sink or swim, life or death, I'll have to say bye bye, its been nice knowing you.
My Mum learnt how to swim in her 50s from being a complete non swimmer. Now, about 15 years later, she goes swimming every week and does at least 1km but will keep going if she's feeling strong.
I'm so proud of her!

Good luck with the training.

greg66_tri_v2.0

lost_in_thought wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

as you're only engaging the relatively puny arm muscles

Woman, have you NO observational skilz?

This is cycling forum. You won't find a better display of guns this side of the changing rooms at this year's Mr. Universe.

Unless you mean "relative" to our space-time continuum bending quads and glutes, of course...

Where can I obtain tickets to this gun show?

Morpeth Arms, Friday evenings in the summer. It's like being at an audition for Arnie's stunt double.

Bring something soft to cushion the fall when you come over all dizzy and swoon...

lost_in_thought

Asprilla wrote:

What LiT said, but with the exercise I mentioned (particularly in open water you need to be able to vary your breathing).

I used to swim at county level and I used to coach stroke correction.

Yep, it's a fair point, it could also be a good idea to practice transition from a standard head-down stroke to a head-up stroke as you'd see in water-polo and back. However, I suspect that if iPete is having trouble and swallowing water he should just focus on getting his basic technique down to start with.

dhope

lost_in_thought wrote:

dhope wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

I can bore you with swimming technique for hours on end, hours I tell you!

<grabs pen>
Uh huh, keep going. I only have 4 and a half months to go from thrashing wildly to thrashing slightly less wildly.

It's hard to tell what the problems are without more details! Start with the stuff from the above essay...

Breathing mostly pressingly I think - after a few lengths on gradually less and less oxygen technique tends to get a bit more frantic and, knowing I can make it to the end of the current length without a proper breath, I'll rush through rather than slowing and sorting out proper breathing again.

(In process of arranging some lessons though)

asprilla

lost_in_thought wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

What LiT said, but with the exercise I mentioned (particularly in open water you need to be able to vary your breathing).

I used to swim at county level and I used to coach stroke correction.

Yep, it's a fair point, it could also be a good idea to practice transition from a standard head-down stroke to a head-up stroke as you'd see in water-polo and back. However, I suspect that if iPete is having trouble and swallowing water he should just focus on getting his basic technique down to start with.

You only need to be head up every second or third stroke to help with sighting. This shouldn't taken are of in an open water session, along with positioning (if you start near the front on the inside in a tri someone will swim over the top of you, hence the need to practice breathing every four strokes and pace yourself accordingly).

lost_in_thought

dhope wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

dhope wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

I can bore you with swimming technique for hours on end, hours I tell you!

<grabs pen>
Uh huh, keep going. I only have 4 and a half months to go from thrashing wildly to thrashing slightly less wildly.

It's hard to tell what the problems are without more details! Start with the stuff from the above essay...

Breathing mostly pressingly I think - after a few lengths on gradually less and less oxygen technique tends to get a bit more frantic and, knowing I can make it to the end of the current length without a proper breath, I'll rush through rather than slowing and sorting out proper breathing again.

(In process of arranging some lessons though)

Lessons = good plan. Frantic is bad, mmmkay! Take it slow, focus on your technique, think about your movements.

lost_in_thought

Asprilla wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

What LiT said, but with the exercise I mentioned (particularly in open water you need to be able to vary your breathing).

I used to swim at county level and I used to coach stroke correction.

Yep, it's a fair point, it could also be a good idea to practice transition from a standard head-down stroke to a head-up stroke as you'd see in water-polo and back. However, I suspect that if iPete is having trouble and swallowing water he should just focus on getting his basic technique down to start with.

You only need to be head up every second or third stroke to help with sighting. This shouldn't taken are of in an open water session, along with positioning (if you start near the front on the inside in a tri someone will swim over the top of you, hence the need to practice breathing every four strokes and pace yourself accordingly).

Really? That's very regular indeed! I've done quite a lot of open water/sea, no tri though, and didn't look up that regularly!

Agree on the need to be able to control breathing, but as I said, he needs to learn to do it properly before fine-tuning or he'll end up in a kuffuffle...

antfly

iPete wrote:

Any regular swimmers amongst the commuters?

Have entered an Olympic distance Tri in July & realised last week that I can't swim lol, been 5 times in the last 8 days but its slow progress!

Had a lesson to work on technique but I'm always short of breathe after 50 metres, do you eventually click and grow aqua lungs?

Its am open water sea swim btw :shock:

Tips welcome/needed!

When you're in the sea you float much easier but you also drown easier.

greg66_tri_v2.0

lost_in_thought wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

What LiT said, but with the exercise I mentioned (particularly in open water you need to be able to vary your breathing).

I used to swim at county level and I used to coach stroke correction.

Yep, it's a fair point, it could also be a good idea to practice transition from a standard head-down stroke to a head-up stroke as you'd see in water-polo and back. However, I suspect that if iPete is having trouble and swallowing water he should just focus on getting his basic technique down to start with.

You only need to be head up every second or third stroke to help with sighting. This shouldn't taken are of in an open water session, along with positioning (if you start near the front on the inside in a tri someone will swim over the top of you, hence the need to practice breathing every four strokes and pace yourself accordingly).

Really? That's very regular indeed! I've done quite a lot of open water/sea, no tri though, and didn't look up that regularly!

Agree on the need to be able to control breathing, but as I said, he needs to learn to do it properly before fine-tuning or he'll end up in a kuffuffle...

I reckon once you're good, you have a pretty good idea of whether you pull to the left or right, and by how much, and you get a reasonable feel for lateral drift from the current. Take a couple of sightings early on and you get the sense of where you need to aim for in order to let your stroke and the current get you to your destination, hence a lot less sighting.

As a relative novice In an open water, the OP will be at the back of the pack. So just follow other people's feet, take sightings from time to time and hope for the best...

asprilla

LiT, I probably check too often because so much pool swimming and breathing every 2 left me very right side dominant. As a result I pull right quite a bit with no lanes for guidance.

I also find that since I swim consistently whereas a lot of triathletes go charging off and slow considerably in the last half very regular sighting allows you to pick a better route through the pack.

zorg2000

All good comments.
6 months before my first I couldnt finish 2x25m lengths in a pool. Even breastroke. However I did finish 6 sprints in quick succession afterwards. Still not a good swimmer but can share a few tips that worked for me:

First I took 9 lessons at the local leasure centre and then just practiced through a bit of trial and error. From a running/cycling background it was hard to learn less is more. In other words relax and do as little as possible. Its a lot harder than you think especially when ones mentality is to increase effort to go faster as you do with running/cycling.

Breathing was difficult to get right but relaxing made a big difference as you dont in turn need all that oxygen. 20 mins before a swim I would focus on relaxing by slowing my body movements down, getting ready slowly and trying not to get distracted.

Having the wrong body position was contributing to failure to breathe properly. If you feel like you are about to sink the anxiety goes up and breathing becomes harder. So it is important to get the position right. What I found helps is facing directly down (i.e 90 degrees). The rest of the body follows. I know many good swimmers look forward in the water but for me I found this to help get my position right.

Kicking is very important but not so much as a means of propulsion but rather to keep you horizontal in the water. It is misleading when you hear triathletes dont use their legs. They certainly do/should, but mostly as a means to position their bodies. You are looking for a gentle kick from the hips so as not to create too much drag (remember those fish). be prepared to spend some time cruising up and down with kickboard and fins/without fins.

Lastly, I found drills to be very helpful. Specifically using a pull buoy and fins/kickboard (not all 3 at the same time). Despite much initial reservation I found using a buoy between the legs easier as it 'lifted' my legs and corrected my position in the water. They help a lot to get your position right but be careful of developing an over reliance on them.

Fins/kickboard are good for learning how to kick and teaching your ankles to be flexible. Make sure you get the short swimming fins. Diving fins can cause issues so avoid using them. Initially, I would stand completely still kicking with a kickboard despite churning up a tremendous amount of water. Practicing with fins improved that and now I dont splash much and actually move forward although not very fast.

Lastly, take the last 2 mins of the swim easy on race day. Getting to the bike oxygen depleted is not a very enjoyable experience.

Good luck. WIth a bit of practice you will crack the swim..

iPete

Impressive amount of knowledge from you lot!

All taken on board, think I need to employ LiT as a coach!

dhope, its the Bournemouth Tri, London was sold out when I looked a few weeks ago.

Now to put all of the above into practice, its lucky I'm ahead of the game out of the pool, can really put my effort into sorting out the swim.

greg66_tri_v2.0

dhope wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

dhope wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

I can bore you with swimming technique for hours on end, hours I tell you!

<grabs pen>
Uh huh, keep going. I only have 4 and a half months to go from thrashing wildly to thrashing slightly less wildly.

It's hard to tell what the problems are without more details! Start with the stuff from the above essay...

Breathing mostly pressingly I think - after a few lengths on gradually less and less oxygen technique tends to get a bit more frantic and, knowing I can make it to the end of the current length without a proper breath, I'll rush through rather than slowing and sorting out proper breathing again.

(In process of arranging some lessons though)

Therein lies one of the problems with learning good swimming technique. Swimming is about repetitive precise movement. Do it when you're tired/knackered, chances are you do it wrong. And in so doing you ingrain in your muscle memory some bad habits...

iPete

Aqua phobics ruined any opportunity to try and do some distance tonight with only one lane open it was 25m at a time.

BUT took todays reading and stopped moving my head on non breathing strokes, it was moving with my body side to side. Started to kick with my waist, not my feet, work in progress, disproportionate cycling legs to upper body are still causing drag. Started to reach forward as far as I could with my stroke and arms felt stronger pulling through the water and was more paddle like, not dipping them deep down into the water.

Luckily my house mate whos armed with a car has entered the same event so a drive to a 50m pool is on the cards soon. Looking forward to open water end April, will sort out another lesson at the time.

pitchshifter, useful vid! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax77_hHq9Dc

lost_in_thought

iPete wrote:

Aqua phobics ruined any opportunity to try and do some distance tonight with only one lane open it was 25m at a time.

BUT took todays reading and stopped moving my head on non breathing strokes, it was moving with my body side to side. Started to kick with my waist, not my feet, work in progress, disproportionate cycling legs to upper body are still causing drag. Started to reach forward as far as I could with my stroke and arms felt stronger pulling through the water and was more paddle like, not dipping them deep down into the water.

Luckily my house mate whos armed with a car has entered the same event so a drive to a 50m pool is on the cards soon. Looking forward to open water end April, will sort out another lesson at the time.

pitchshifter, useful vid! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax77_hHq9Dc

Good stuff. Rome wasn't built in a day but getting into good habits is important. For now, perhaps focus on technique rather than distance. For your breathing try breathing on the bike like you do swimming.

Your pool may have floats available - kickboards and pullbuoys are usually around somewhere at most pools. Use them! If you can isolate the kick and the pull they will likely improve, then you can put them together. The cycling legs should be a help not a hindrance! Excuses excuses :P

Pull fine-tuning... look at Thorpe in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TbpB-1WjcU - once his hand is off the surface, he's immediately bending the elbow and pulling in an 'S' shape - this maximises your propulsion for each stroke and reduces drag.

Think of it as drawing a 'pamela anderson' shape with your hand!

You should go from a straight arm, out to the side, then in towards your bellybutton, then back out towards your hip, lift from the elbow, then stab forwards again.

The lift from the elbow at the back of the stroke is very important... it should be like you're about to punch someone - you pull back with your elbow leading, not your hand. Practice it at your desk! Watch videos of Thorpe! (EDIT: A great drill for this is to drag your fingertips through the water on each forward stroke - just your fingertips... this almost forces you to adopt a correct elbow position)

Head positioning... thinking changes on this all the time, but the two schools of thought are either looking mostly down but a bit forwards, or looking forwards with the water level at your eyebrows. Try both! I have had most success with the eyebrows method.

I have coached swimming and been coached an awful lot in my time