Public sector pensions
Comments
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squeeler wrote:"Remember to tell that to your nurse next time you go to hospital." -George Shaw
What are you on about?
I think that your nurse might not take the information that you resent their cushy pensions in a positive manner.0 -
Rolf F wrote:The 'or' is misplaced. Part of the problem is that it is 'work longer, pay more, get less'.
Tell me about it!
I guess I should be more careful with my phrasing 'work a lot longer, pay a lot more or get a lot less' vs 'do a bit of all three'......
Anyway, I don't know what everyone's so upset about: it's just a report stating the bl***ng obvious. What matters is whether the government's got the stones to do something about it....0 -
verylonglegs wrote:For me the problem is that the public sector pension is an ‘unfunded’ scheme.
But this is a Treasury problem. Government has always treated all of it's cash flows as exactly that, just a flow of day-to-day cash, and the Treasury doesn't allow for any hypothecation (ring-fencing income for certain expenditures). The concept of National Insurance payments is completely redundant, as it all goes into one bucket.verylonglegs wrote:What is needed is a sovereign wealth fund of sorts like Norway has but unfortunately successive governments have stuck their heads in the sand on this to get to where we are now.
Unfortunately we pissed away our oil money on tax cuts.0 -
I'm complaining? I don't realise how cold it is? I work in a 7 man company and I'm on 2 weeks notice, with the majority of my pay coming from commission, so I pretty much get no pension whatsoever. It's about as private sector as it gets here.rhext wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:rhext wrote:That's what's happening in spades in the private sector, and I can't see why it shouldn't happen in the public sector too!
Why should what happens in the private sector reflect the public?
Because the output of the private sector pays the public sector's wages!
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big supporter of public services, and I don't begrudge the considerable proportion of my income which goes towards funding it. But all of the things you are complaining of: wage freezes (reductions in many cases), pension contribution increases and benefit reductions, 'efficiency improvement measures' (AKA redundancies) have been cutting through the private sector like a scythe over the last 2-3 years. To have the public sector turn round and say 'but you must continue to pay even more taxes so that we don't have to suffer from the same issues' seems far from 'fair' to me. I don't think you guys realise quite how cold it is out here at the moment.
Nor is it as simple as "private pays for public". It's not how it works. The gov't requisitions a proportion of your pay and spends it for you, because the gov't doesn't trust the public to spend it on things which are actually of benefit to them as a society. Public sector provides a very important service which adds value - it's just not subject to the same price competition which makes it less efficient.
Anyway, those "private" sector people who moan about feelnig the pain want it both ways. When things are gonig well they want to be paid more than the public sector, since that's how it should be. Then when the hurt comes on they want the public sector guys, who having been fobbed off on lower salaries on the basis that their jobs are probably a little safer when the sh!t does hit the fan, to feel even more pain because they are. You can't have it both ways.0 -
rhext wrote:Because the output of the private sector pays the public sector's wages!
Of course the public sector also pays the private sector's wages ...0 -
squeeler wrote:I'm not angry thay get a pension at all, just concerned that it is out of whack with what everyone else gets.
OK if we're equalising things please can I not be expected to work christmas day, can i get a productivity or Christmas bonus, any chance of a company car, non contributory pension when times are good, staff discount, health or gym membership a pay rise that meets the real inflation figure once in a while, the right not to have leave cancelled or redcinded after its been agreed or any of the other perks which permeate large parts of the private sector that are not and never have been part of public sector consideration.
Where do posters get this fallacy we retire at 55? Not me, I'm in it for the long haul too.
I, like many others in Public Sector do a rather specialised job not available privately on a salary £20+k less than similar levels of responsibility and consequences to others if I get it wrong. There are a handful of places nationwide I can work. The vast majority of private sector staff can vote with their feet or go to the boss with a job offer in the same locality and ask to be matched to maintain loyalty Not me, I'm effectively tied labour my perks and options compared to private sector are pretty much non existent. If you were equalised to my options you'd be screaming a hell of a lot more about the massive erosion of your working liberty. Don't confuse the public sector as a whole with the tiny fraction that can get away with ripping the arse out of the system that seem to be the only ones that slip through the blinkers and bigotry
Equality works both ways0 -
GeorgeShaw wrote:rhext wrote:Because the output of the private sector pays the public sector's wages!
Of course the public sector also pays the private sector's wages ...
The public sector pays some of the private sector's wages.[/i]0 -
@RickChasey: I'd not read your posts carefully enough and I apologise!
As it happens I agree with a lot of what you say about the importance of a strong public sector and the desirability of paying competitively for it. I simply contend that what consitutes a 'competitive package' has undergone something of a change over the last two to three years.0 -
rhext wrote:GeorgeShaw wrote:rhext wrote:Because the output of the private sector pays the public sector's wages!
Of course the public sector also pays the private sector's wages ...
The public sector pays some of the private sector's wages.[/i]
It's not a zero-sum pot.0 -
shouldbeinbed wrote:squeeler wrote:OK if we're equalising things please can I not be expected to work christmas day, can i get a productivity or Christmas bonus, any chance of a company car, non contributory pension when times are good, staff discount, health or gym membership a pay rise that meets the real inflation figure once in a while, the right not to have leave cancelled or redcinded after its been agreed or any of the other perks which permeate large parts of the private sector that are not and never have been part of public sector consideration.
I hate to dispel the myth that permeates the public sector that all us private sector employees are BMW driving, expense killing Gordon Gekko-alikes, but it simply isn't true.
Most companies, from SME through to major multinational, have made cutbacks - in the form of wage freezes (or even pay cuts to ensure survival), cutbacks on bonuses, perks, expenses claims, gym memberships and just about anything else. We haven't seen strike threats or militant unionism, because unlike many (note I did not say all) Public Sector employees and their union generals, we actually grasp the concept that you can only spend what is coming in. If incomes are down, then it is simply irresponsible to continue spending. My contract includes provision for a number of bonuses, perks etc and annual pay review but they are on hold at the moment. I'm grown up enough to understand that it has to wait until it can be afforded again. Not nice but that's how it has to be.0 -
rhext wrote:GeorgeShaw wrote:rhext wrote:Because the output of the private sector pays the public sector's wages!
Of course the public sector also pays the private sector's wages ...
The public sector pays some of the private sector's wages.
I'm just trying to demonstrate that the economy is a bit more complex than some people would like to make out. If you squeeze the income of any sector, then that means that they'll be spending less, so that will mean less jobs in the private sector, and paying less taxes, which will pressurise employment in the public sector. What we need is to find the correct balance, not engage in a downward spiral.0 -
rhext wrote:GeorgeShaw wrote:rhext wrote:Because the output of the private sector pays the public sector's wages!
Of course the public sector also pays the private sector's wages ...
The public sector pays some of the private sector's wages.[/i]
How much would it cost you for absolute healthcare, will you be buying your own ambulance with a few neighbours, antisocial behaviour or burglary worrying you - how many police officers will you buy - found fingerprints or DNA - how much will you pay ti find out whos they are, want justice, CPS lawyers cost money too you know Next door but 1 dead in their armchair- are you going to go in and find them, room in your freezer whilst the funeral directors are sorted, when will you be purchasing a wheelie bin and how much will you pay to a private contract to dispose of and house your refuse, potholes a problem round your way, how much will you be paying mcalpines tco come and fill them in..... the public sector takes massive financial burdens off the private sector businesses and private individuals often doing the the work at the gruesom end or working with people at the worst moments in their lives 365/24/7 however they are treated by these people. Public Sector is something of a misnomer - you're paying us for a necessary service package as you pay to 'private' companies for other necessities like food and home fuel etc. You're paying to their pension too as am I and in case of Asda e.g. we've been subsidising an extremely generous pension plan till rexently AND subsidising their weekly shopping bill with ours. Quid pro quo
Oh and all those people that want government to mend their houses and replace their furniture after a natural disaster because they have made a choice not to have home insurance...... how would they cope not paying medicare or copsure when it goes belly up on em? Somethings need to be paid for and that needs dedicated professionals ti be paid for and looked after whether it is perceived as private or public sector responsibility
Edit - apologies for typos im on my phone0 -
shouldbeinbed wrote:rhext wrote:GeorgeShaw wrote:rhext wrote:Because the output of the private sector pays the public sector's wages!
Of course the public sector also pays the private sector's wages ...
The public sector pays some of the private sector's wages.[/i]
How much would it cost you for absolute healthcare, will you be buying your own ambulance with a few neighbours, antisocial behaviour or burglary worrying you - how many police officers will you buy - found fingerprints or DNA - how much will you pay ti find out whos they are, want justice, CPS lawyers cost money too you know Next door but 1 dead in their armchair- are you going to go in and find them, room in your freezer whilst the funeral directors are sorted, when will you be purchasing a wheelie bin and how much will you pay to a private contract to dispose of and house your refuse, potholes a problem round your way, how much will you be paying mcalpines tco come and fill them in..... the public sector takes massive financial burdens off the private sector businesses and private individuals often doing the the work at the gruesom end or working with people at the worst moments in their lives 365/24/7 however they are treated by these people. Public Sector is something of a misnomer - you're paying us for a necessary service package as you pay to 'private' companies for other necessities like food and home fuel etc. You're paying to their pension too as am I and in case of Asda e.g. we've been subsidising an extremely generous pension plan till rexently AND subsidising their weekly shopping bill with ours. Quid pro quo
Oh and all those people that want government to mend their houses and replace their furniture after a natural disaster because they have made a choice not to have home insurance...... how would they cope not paying medicare or copsure when it goes belly up on em? Somethings need to be paid for and that needs dedicated professionals ti be paid for and looked after whether it is perceived as private or public sector responsibility
Edit - apologies for typos im on my phone
You assume I'm opposed to funding a public sector. I'm not!
The fact remains, however, that people are living longer, which means that funding retirement becomes more expensive. If you protect one large sector of the workforce from the obvious costs of that, the increased burden must necessarily fall on the rest, and that does not seem fair to me! If life expectancy is increasing, why is it unreasonable to expect that at least some of that increase will need to be spent working?0 -
plowmar wrote:And don't forget, despite all the publicity, the average public sector pension is just £7800 p.a..
that is a totally meaningless figure. You are including dinner ladies, school crossing wardens and a host of other part time jobs. Thurrock Council were advertising for Bikeability Instructors on a zero hours contract £6.71 an hour working as and when, but usually 2 hours a day, 4 or 5 days a week, 39 weeks a year. The job was pensionable. That would pay about £2,500 a year and accrue pension at around £30 per year. So if you did it for 40 years you would have a pension of £1,200. This brings down the average considerably. Also those staff who retire at 55 or 60 have 10 or 5 years less pensionable "years" and will therefore get less pension than someone on the same pay who works till 65. They also get a full pension, whereas other workers who retire "early" get a reduced pension.
It is about time public sector workers joined the real world ! The last firm I worked for closed their final salary just after I joined and increased employees contributions twice in 5 years. All because Brown stole £5b from pension funds within weeks of Labour winning the election.0 -
Jeez - you must love your work.
I'm almost 23 and I already hate every hour I spend sitting with cretins who think they make a difference to the world because they earn a bit of cash, and as such, think the world owes them something.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Only, I can live without John Lewis - I can't live without public servants.
I bet there are an awful lot we could all live without.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Jeez - you must love your work.
I'm almost 23 and I already hate every hour I spend sitting with cretins who think they make a difference to the world because they earn a bit of cash, and as such, think the world owes them something.
Love it/hate it makes no difference! I don't want to work for longer, I just acknowledge that if I'm going to live longer then I'm probably going to have to work for longer too. Or does the world owe me a pension?0 -
rhext wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Jeez - you must love your work.
I'm almost 23 and I already hate every hour I spend sitting with cretins who think they make a difference to the world because they earn a bit of cash, and as such, think the world owes them something.
Love it/hate it makes no difference! I don't want to work for longer, I just acknowledge that if I'm going to live longer then I'm probably going to have to work for longer too. Or does the world owe me a pension?
Ja now we're in existential territory.
As a thought - just because you live longer doesn't mean you'll be able to be good at work for longer.
I can't imagine 60yr old nurses or firemen doing very well.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:If you want talent in public services
I think we all do.
Sadly, the genuine, hard working, talented members of the public sector (who thoroughly deserve/earn their remuneration and pensions imho)
are diluted by many, many work shy people, who offer the public zero value for money, spending their days hiding in the shadows until they can scurry away off home with a handsome pension tucked under their arm.
Personally, I think the government need to leave the public sector pensions as they are, and just remove the public sector workers that aren't pulling their weight.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:rhext wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Jeez - you must love your work.
I'm almost 23 and I already hate every hour I spend sitting with cretins who think they make a difference to the world because they earn a bit of cash, and as such, think the world owes them something.
Love it/hate it makes no difference! I don't want to work for longer, I just acknowledge that if I'm going to live longer then I'm probably going to have to work for longer too. Or does the world owe me a pension?
Ja now we're in existential territory.
As a thought - just because you live longer doesn't mean you'll be able to be good at work for longer.
I can't imagine 60yr old nurses or firemen doing very well.
I’d actually counter that by saying we are now younger for longer. Look at pictures of your grandparents when they were your age, I am almost 100% certain that you will find they look older than you do.
Better diet, better general health awareness and cleaner lifestyles have resulted in us now living and being useful for longer, so someone now who is 60 is probably on a par to someone 50 years old 2 generations ago. Provided we start to do something about obesity related illness, there is no reason this trend shouldn’t continue.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:rhext wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Jeez - you must love your work.
I'm almost 23 and I already hate every hour I spend sitting with cretins who think they make a difference to the world because they earn a bit of cash, and as such, think the world owes them something.
Love it/hate it makes no difference! I don't want to work for longer, I just acknowledge that if I'm going to live longer then I'm probably going to have to work for longer too. Or does the world owe me a pension?
Ja now we're in existential territory.
As a thought - just because you live longer doesn't mean you'll be able to be good at work for longer.
I can't imagine 60yr old nurses or firemen doing very well.
Most people aren't past it at 60 these days. Anyway, here's one to bear in mind: if you're 23, and pensions are not adjusted to take account of increased longevity, you'll be the one paying for it........0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:rhext wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:rhext wrote:. Then when the hurt comes on they want the public sector guys, who having been fobbed off on lower salaries on the basis that their jobs are probably a little safer when the sh!t does hit the fan, to feel even more pain because they are. You can't have it both ways.
it is no longer the case that public sector salaries are lower across the board than private.
In recent years there has been much movement to pay parity public v private, but no cost in of the value of the public pension.
My wifes ex employer used to pay in 23% of salary plus her 6% - THAT is the true cost/value of a final salary pension.0 -
andyrm wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:rhext wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Jeez - you must love your work.
I'm almost 23 and I already hate every hour I spend sitting with cretins who think they make a difference to the world because they earn a bit of cash, and as such, think the world owes them something.
Love it/hate it makes no difference! I don't want to work for longer, I just acknowledge that if I'm going to live longer then I'm probably going to have to work for longer too. Or does the world owe me a pension?
Ja now we're in existential territory.
As a thought - just because you live longer doesn't mean you'll be able to be good at work for longer.
I can't imagine 60yr old nurses or firemen doing very well.
I’d actually counter that by saying we are now younger for longer. Look at pictures of your grandparents when they were your age, I am almost 100% certain that you will find they look older than you do.
Better diet, better general health awareness and cleaner lifestyles have resulted in us now living and being useful for longer, so someone now who is 60 is probably on a par to someone 50 years old 2 generations ago. Provided we start to do something about obesity related illness, there is no reason this trend shouldn’t continue.
Younger? Christ I've been working my balls of for my sodding 'career' since I was 15. Competing to get into a good sixth form, competing against other driven people to get into a good university, to come out with a degree that actually matters rather than have 7 years worth of work p!ssed away by some old guy who claims that degrees arn't worth anything anymore. Spending a whole year fighting for any f*cking job I can get, only to find that once in work, people p1ss away 40% of their time (like I am now) and claim they work hard.
I'm jaded with it all and I'm only bloody 22. It's so competitive nowadays you have to grow up way sooner or else fear being left behind in a world that couldn't give a sh!t as long as it doesn't affect them. This recession is going to leave a big scar on the geneartion that's now coming into work and it's going to affect everything, health, productivty, mental wellbeing, the lot.
You may not quite have children yet who are at the age where this all matters, but I know that all the parents of my friends my age were all surprised and shocked at what we have to do to get anywhere.
Making everyone work longer is going to affect the quality of life of everyone. It's a big big step back, and it could have been avoided, had the lot who do all the earning and the governning (read baby boomers) had been a little less selfish and had a little more foresight.
[/rant]0 -
rhext wrote:shouldbeinbed wrote:rhext wrote:GeorgeShaw wrote:rhext wrote:Because the output of the private sector pays the public sector's wages!
Of course the public sector also pays the private sector's wages ...
The public sector pays some of the private sector's wages.[/i]
How much would it cost you for absolute healthcare, will you be buying your own ambulance with a few neighbours, antisocial behaviour or burglary worrying you - how many police officers will you buy - found fingerprints or DNA - how much will you pay ti find out whos they are, want justice, CPS lawyers cost money too you know Next door but 1 dead in their armchair- are you going to go in and find them, room in your freezer whilst the funeral directors are sorted, when will you be purchasing a wheelie bin and how much will you pay to a private contract to dispose of and house your refuse, potholes a problem round your way, how much will you be paying mcalpines tco come and fill them in..... the public sector takes massive financial burdens off the private sector businesses and private individuals often doing the the work at the gruesom end or working with people at the worst moments in their lives 365/24/7 however they are treated by these people. Public Sector is something of a misnomer - you're paying us for a necessary service package as you pay to 'private' companies for other necessities like food and home fuel etc. You're paying to their pension too as am I and in case of Asda e.g. we've been subsidising an extremely generous pension plan till rexently AND subsidising their weekly shopping bill with ours. Quid pro quo
Oh and all those people that want government to mend their houses and replace their furniture after a natural disaster because they have made a choice not to have home insurance...... how would they cope not paying medicare or copsure when it goes belly up on em? Somethings need to be paid for and that needs dedicated professionals ti be paid for and looked after whether it is perceived as private or public sector responsibility
Edit - apologies for typos im on my phone
You assume I'm opposed to funding a public sector. I'm not!
The fact remains, however, that people are living longer, which means that funding retirement becomes more expensive. If you protect one large sector of the workforce from the obvious costs of that, the increased burden must necessarily fall on the rest, and that does not seem fair to me! If life expectancy is increasing, why is it unreasonable to expect that at least some of that increase will need to be spent working?
it is for the vast majority of us - my retirement age has always been 65 and is increasing in line with government policy I COULD retire at 55 as could you but on a far smaller pension reflecting far smaller contributions and (mine at least) not index linked until I hit government specified pensionable age.
Apologies, not having a go at you per se - just a general blather to a few posts rather than quoting bits of many 6 times.
As a general point to all the 'i pay my taxes/for the public sector - therefire I expect a right to dictate how the money is spent'
Necessary services you receive
housing paid for by rent or mortgage, lets call it a living tax consequence for not paying it vagrancy.
food paid to tesco/asda/sainsburys/ very few others - lets call it sustenance tax - consequence for not paying starve or live your life as a hunter gatherer/farm your home (when will you have time to work)
heat & light & water paid to utility companies lets call it a comfort tax - consequence for not paying cold dark, living round a fire and drinking collected rainwater.
these are all private companies that Tax you - try not paying any of them and see what happens very quickly. it will be far more swift and decisive than not paying your Income tax or council tax and you will be banned from future use of their services.
There are many such 'private sector' de-facto taxes which are far more inflexible, prone to random, inexorable, way above inflation increases & enforcement/consequences for avoidance that is immediate and unforgiving way more than the public sector.
I don't see the same fuss (outside of a tiny few top level bankers) and demands for equalisation for these companies nor the blind blanket vilification of every employee in these taxation stations in the same way 'public sector worker' is rapidly becoming a generic term of abuse now regardless of what and how we do. I do a job that helps you live your life in peace and security, I'm there to help when things have gone dramatically wrong for you or somone close to you. I would cost you a hell of a lot more if I billed my professional service on consultant rates. I'm not the bogeyman.
ask the supermarket for an equivalent staff discount as 'you pay for them', demand their pension is no different to yours. Ask your mortgage provider for a say on the top mans share bonus. use 'halifax staff' in the same way as you use 'the public sector' and see if it feels right and honest to you to denigrate an entire workforce for sins outside of their control.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:. Then when the hurt comes on they want the public sector guys, who having been fobbed off on lower salaries on the basis that their jobs are probably a little safer when the sh!t does hit the fan, to feel even more pain because they are. You can't have it both ways.piquet wrote:
it is no longer the case that public sector salaries are lower across the board than private.
In recent years there has been much movement to pay parity public v private, but no cost in of the value of the public pension.
My wifes ex employer used to pay in 23% of salary plus her 6% - THAT is the true cost/value of a final salary pension.
How recent? The last 3 years? :? You have to take a longer view, at least over the last 10 years.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:andyrm wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:rhext wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Jeez - you must love your work.
I'm almost 23 and I already hate every hour I spend sitting with cretins who think they make a difference to the world because they earn a bit of cash, and as such, think the world owes them something.
Love it/hate it makes no difference! I don't want to work for longer, I just acknowledge that if I'm going to live longer then I'm probably going to have to work for longer too. Or does the world owe me a pension?
Ja now we're in existential territory.
As a thought - just because you live longer doesn't mean you'll be able to be good at work for longer.
I can't imagine 60yr old nurses or firemen doing very well.
I’d actually counter that by saying we are now younger for longer. Look at pictures of your grandparents when they were your age, I am almost 100% certain that you will find they look older than you do.
Better diet, better general health awareness and cleaner lifestyles have resulted in us now living and being useful for longer, so someone now who is 60 is probably on a par to someone 50 years old 2 generations ago. Provided we start to do something about obesity related illness, there is no reason this trend shouldn’t continue.
Younger? Christ I've been working my balls of for my sodding 'career' since I was 15. Competing to get into a good sixth form, competing against other driven people to get into a good university, to come out with a degree that actually matters rather than have 7 years worth of work p!ssed away by some old guy who claims that degrees arn't worth anything anymore. Spending a whole year fighting for any f*cking job I can get, only to find that once in work, people p1ss away 40% of their time (like I am now) and claim they work hard.
I'm jaded with it all and I'm only bloody 22. It's so competitive nowadays you have to grow up way sooner or else fear being left behind in a world that couldn't give a sh!t as long as it doesn't affect them. This recession is going to leave a big scar on the geneartion that's now coming into work and it's going to affect everything, health, productivty, mental wellbeing, the lot.
You may not quite have children yet who are at the age where this all matters, but I know that all the parents of my friends my age were all surprised and shocked at what we have to do to get anywhere.
Making everyone work longer is going to affect the quality of life of everyone. It's a big big step back, and it could have been avoided, had the lot who do all the earning and the governning (read baby boomers) had been a little less selfish and had a little more foresight.
[/rant]
Rick,
I hate to break it to you, but that’s the way of the world now my friend. Recession is actually partly a by-product of our on-demand, cost driven way of working. It started when as a nation we started to look only at short term cost savings by purchasing from emerging Far East markets to make greater short term margins. The result was that our manufacturing industry went into decline, in turn creating a wave of unemployment in the short term and longer term resulting in less tax income into the Treasury to pay for public services/pensions etc.
The fact is that globally, we are now in a hugely competitive environment where everything is commoditised and on an open market. There is nothing any of us can do to change that, we have to accept and adapt to survive. Just as private sector businesses have had to become leaner operations with people working harder and putting more in to ensure survival, so too must the public sector accept their share of the burden and act as responsible citizens and in the greater good of society.
You talk about the lack of work ethic – that is something that infuriates me too. Luckily I have always worked in a fast paced SME environment where that sort of behavious is simply incompatible so those kind of people are soon rooted out. I’d really strongly recommend you jump to a small dynamic organisation where you can work surrounded by similar people and really get stuck in & make a difference. From the sounds of what you have said, it would suit you well. Good luck!0 -
shouldbeinbed wrote:
Lots
The key difference is that the large companies you cite are subject to competitive pressure. They're constantly striving to contain input costs because they know that if they don't, they'll have no option but to raise their prices and we'll just buy somewhere else.
There's no such pressure in the public sector: are we simply to accept that costs must just be allowed to spiral upwards?
Perhaps I should restate:
1) The public sector is valuable: I'm a fan and I'm more than happy to make my small contribution.
2) The people who work in the public sector are entitled to competitive remuneration for the valuable jobs that they do.
3) Public sector pensions are an integral part of that remuneration package and I support their continued existance.
But that doesn't mean that questions of affordability and cost containment shouldn't be raised and actioned when tax revenues start to fall or specific costs start to rocket.0 -
andyrm wrote:Recession is actually partly a by-product of our on-demand, cost driven way of working. It started when as a nation we started to look only at short term cost savings by purchasing from emerging Far East markets to make greater short term margins. The result was that our manufacturing industry went into decline, in turn creating a wave of unemployment in the short term and longer term resulting in less tax income into the Treasury to pay for public services/pensions etc.
The fact is that globally, we are now in a hugely competitive environment where everything is commoditised and on an open market. There is nothing any of us can do to change that, we have to accept and adapt to survive. Just as private sector businesses have had to become leaner operations with people working harder and putting more in to ensure survival, so too must the public sector accept their share of the burden and act as responsible citizens and in the greater good of society.
Where to start ... Mostly this is not inevitable, but a product of poor government choices (by all governments). Recession has been a product of government's laissez-faire attitude to regulation of the financial sector. Manufacturing industry has been in decline since the 50s, since we lost our captive colonial markets. Successive governments have favoured the financial sector over manufacturing, and now we are getting the consequences. Unemployment suits company bosses. You might have noticed that wages in all sectors have been falling (allowing for inflation) for over 6 years now. Company directors' "compensations" don't seem to be doing the same, even before you take into account tax evasion.
Unfortunately we seem to have been persuaded that this is all our fault and there is no alternative. So everybody runs around like headless chickens thinking that they are hard done by, and that guy over there isn't suffering enough because I am. How those with the real power laughed ...0 -
rhext wrote:The key difference is that the large companies you cite are subject to competitive pressure. They're constantly striving to contain input costs because they know that if they don't, they'll have no option but to raise their prices and we'll just buy somewhere else.
In an ideal world. Tell that to the utility companies, petrol companies, etc. I can buy eggs from the local farm at half the price of Tescos equivalent. Private companies are sitting on vast cash reserves at the moment, and seem quite profitable to me.0 -
When are people going to acknowledge that your pension isnt a perk or a bonus its actually deferred pay.
When you sign a contract with your employer Public or Private it comes with a renumeration package which includes Pay Holidays and in some cases a pension and you accept the job (sign the contract ) on these conditions
How many of us would accept that our employer has the right to just change the amount of pay or holidays we get without consultation?
Basically the welfare state shells out for so many who wont or dont make a contribution that those of us who work are being told we have to work longer to receive less.
The goverment should work out how much tax youve paid in PAYE and how much N.I youve contributed and you should get a basic pension plus a percentage bonus according to how much you have paid in tax and N.I over the years.
If your a carer or a parent whos not been able to work regularly then you should gain some form of credit for those years too.
why should any one be able to avoid working all their lives and then receive the same pension as someone who has.
Lets be honest here most pension schemes Private or Public are invested with bankers who have over exageratted and exploited funds and cannot now pay out.
Yet Northern Rock and other (state bailed out banks) have just paid staff bonus of £3000 per annum (a very small amount they cry ) when they continue to make a loss with our money.0
