Carbon - I'm a believer

Peddle Up!

After much deliberation I've upgraded from an alloy bike (with carbon front forks) to the full carbon job in the shape of a Trek Madone 5.2. Although I haven't put my old bike and the new one on the scales, I reckon that the weight difference is roughly the extra gut I've put on over winter (it was a good Christmas ).

But what I can't understand is now much faster the new bike feels, and is, especially when climbing. It can't be simply down to weight so what makes the difference (stiffness leading to better power transfer?)?

Anyway, I'm loving how the new bike feels and as the title shows I'm a happy convert to the world of carbon bikes.

danowat

Feels faster? placebo effect probably, if you had some solid data to compare and contrast, it would make it easier to find out.

The first ride on my new Kouta was quite an eye opening experiance, it feels very, very different from my alloy Allez, I don't think its much faster in real terms, but it does feel nicer.

Peddle Up!

danowat wrote:

Feels faster? placebo effect probably, if you had some solid data to compare and contrast, it would make it easier to find out.

It is faster. On a well-ridden circuit I was a couple of mph up on the flat stretches and hills for what seemed to be a lower effort.

MaxwellBygraves

danowat wrote:

Feels faster? placebo effect probably, if you had some solid data to compare and contrast, it would make it easier to find out.

The first ride on my new Kouta was quite an eye opening experiance, it feels very, very different from my alloy Allez, I don't think its much faster in real terms, but it does feel nicer.

+1
The extra stiffness on the hills might make a small difference, but generally I doubt your going much faster, just feels nice to ride a carbon bike.

MaxwellBygraves

Peddle Up! wrote:

danowat wrote:

Feels faster? placebo effect probably, if you had some solid data to compare and contrast, it would make it easier to find out.

It is faster. On a well-ridden circuit I was a couple of mph up on the flat stretches and hills for what seemed to be a lower effort.

Too many variables in the 'test' you describe to deduce that the bike is making you faster.

Peddle Up!

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Peddle Up! wrote:

danowat wrote:

Feels faster? placebo effect probably, if you had some solid data to compare and contrast, it would make it easier to find out.

It is faster. On a well-ridden circuit I was a couple of mph up on the flat stretches and hills for what seemed to be a lower effort.

Too many variables in the 'test' you describe to deduce that the bike is making you faster.

Fair comment. I'll be comparing my cycle logs on the old bike with the new one over the next few months, so that should sort things out.

BTW, if carbon bikes aren't faster (and I think they are), why are so many of the high end machines fabricated that way?

unixnerd

I'll bet it feels faster climbing as the new wheels are lighter. I put lighter wheels on my bike and it made a huge difference.

danowat

Peddle Up! wrote:

danowat wrote:

Feels faster? placebo effect probably, if you had some solid data to compare and contrast, it would make it easier to find out.

It is faster. On a well-ridden circuit I was a couple of mph up on the flat stretches and hills for what seemed to be a lower effort.

"a couple of mph up on the flats" and "for what seemed to be a lower effort" is hardly solid data, each of those could be attributed to many, many different things (tyres, pressures, wheels, weather, how rested you are) etc etc etc.

Its very hard to solidly quantify the speed differences between bike A and bike B, especially when they are as marginal as a "couple of mph".

Just enjoy your new bike, never under estimate the physcological effects of riding something "nice"

nickwill

Its not the carbon that makes it faster. Carbon is just another material. There are good carbon bikes and bad carbon bikes. There are good steel and aluminium bikes as well.
There are no wonder materials just good and bad bikes.
Rant over!

graeme_s-2

Having shelled out a wedge for your new bike you're now sub-conciously putting in more effort to convince yourself it was worth it

MaxwellBygraves

Peddle Up! wrote:

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Peddle Up! wrote:

danowat wrote:

Feels faster? placebo effect probably, if you had some solid data to compare and contrast, it would make it easier to find out.

It is faster. On a well-ridden circuit I was a couple of mph up on the flat stretches and hills for what seemed to be a lower effort.

Too many variables in the 'test' you describe to deduce that the bike is making you faster.

Fair comment. I'll be comparing my cycle logs on the old bike with the new one over the next few months, so that should sort things out.

BTW, if carbon bikes aren't faster (and I think they are), why are so many of the high end machines fabricated that way?

It's not that they're not faster per se, but I don't think that they will give you a couple of mph on the flat. Everything in cycling is engineered for marginal gains. Sure a carbon frame is lighter and stiffer, which may result in small gains in speed. But it's likely your new bike has lighter, stiffer wheels, smoother rolling tyres etc.
Nevermind the factors that you can't control, wind direction and speed, air pressure, temperature etc.
FWIW I love my carbon bike and I would agree that it has a fantastic ride quality. As long as your new bike puts a big smile on your face that's what it's all about.

edhornby

Peddle Up! wrote:

It is faster. On a well-ridden circuit I was a couple of mph up on the flat stretches and hills for what seemed to be a lower effort.

tailwind

Peddle Up!

Graeme_S wrote:

Having shelled out a wedge for your new bike you're now sub-conciously putting in more effort to convince yourself it was worth it

mattsaw

Nickwill wrote:

Its not the carbon that makes it faster. Carbon is just another material. There are good carbon bikes and bad carbon bikes. There are good steel and aluminium bikes as well.
There are no wonder materials just good and bad bikes.
Rant over!

So you would fancy your chances on a lead bike?
Ignoiring the fact that it would be bent all over the place after getting on

markos1963

The other factor not mentioned is position on the bike. This will have the biggest effect on speed, if your new carbon bike has a more racey aero position then you willl be faster regardless of frame material. The bars on my Orbea are nearly 2cm lower than my Boardman and if I ride them over the same course in the same gear the Orbea is more than 1mph faster even though they weigh roughly the same.

desweller

Steel is pretty much a wonder material actually. With clever heat treatment or a little alloying you have something that can cover a vastly wider range of applications than almost any other material.

Peddle Up!

DesWeller wrote:

Steel is pretty much a wonder material actually. With clever heat treatment or a little alloying you have something that can cover a vastly wider range of applications than almost any other material.

And water.

I still don't understand why carbon fibre is used for high end bikes given that is is harder and more expensive to fabricate if it offers little advantage. :?

Looking forward to the all diamond bike.

rc856

You feel faster.
You think you're faster.
You're happy.

End of

Monty Dog

In response to the question why the bike manufacturers concentrate on marketing carbon is simple - profit margins and perceived value. Fabricating a bike frame from metal tubes is a skilled job, the materials are relatively expensive and it's difficult to cope with big changes in demand / volume. Construction of carbon frames these days is semi-skilled at best and the material cost is low - a carbon frame & forks is only about $150 to produce and provided you've got the materials and cheap labour to mind the machines, you can pop them out 24x7 from a big shed in China. As it happens, when designed well, a carbon frame happens to be light and stiff too

Lucky Douglas

My carbon bike is faster than my previous one but that's because it's more fun and I'm doing more work.
I know from my stats that speed is up and heart rate is up.

rake

maybe the bike is a couple mph faster. hope so. frame stiffness better wheels more power to ground. mine is definately a bit faster than my alloy bike but thats a lot lower budget, otherwise why would anyone spend money on carbon.

R8JimBob88

Well I've just ordered a carbon toy with RS80's. Hopefully I'll see a difference in performance compared to my alloy Allez with RS10's. Considering there is about 3kg weight difference between the two....

markos1963

R8JimBob88 wrote:

Well I've just ordered a carbon toy with RS80's. Hopefully I'll see a difference in performance compared to my alloy Allez with RS10's. Considering there is about 3kg weight difference between the two....

A club mate of mine raced last year on an Allez and thrashed a whole load of seriously kitted out others. In one race he started the rear gear cable broke at the start and he still won. Don't be seduced into buying bling thinking it'll make you quicker. Buy it if you like nice qualty kit, I do, but don't expect a big improvement.

mr_poll

Peddle Up! wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

Steel is pretty much a wonder material actually. With clever heat treatment or a little alloying you have something that can cover a vastly wider range of applications than almost any other material.

And water.

I still don't understand why carbon fibre is used for high end bikes given that is is harder and more expensive to fabricate if it offers little advantage. :?

Looking forward to the all diamond bike.

It offers a little advantage to pro cyclists where seconds (or split seconds) can make all the difference. So bike manufacturers make them for the the pro's to promote their brand - this costs money therefore they have to sell lots of "high end" to punters like ourselves to re-coup the cost of R and D etc. To do so they market to us the benefits of what the pro's use and price them accordingly. Happens in all walks of life and all sports:

Carbon bikes and cycling
Ceramic brakes/Kirs etc in formula 1
Ever changing boots in football

etc etc

keef66

Just out of curiosity last night I went out for a spin on the 80's Peugeot I've been rescuing for my son. Simple 501 tubing with a hodge-podge of alloy bits and pieces. I'm wishing I'd transferred the computer to it because it felt amazingly good to ride, so I hammered it all the way round my usual loop. I'm convinced I'd have set a pb.

Anyway, it was a nostalgic hoot. I'd forgotten how well a steel frame rides, and despite my worst fears, flicking through the gears with the downtube shifters in the dark came back to me really easily. I'd also forgotten just how quietly it's possible to change gear, and the joy of being able to trim everything into complete silence.

I had been considering a carbon frame for my next bike, but now lightweight steel is looking far more likely.

Peddle Up!

keef66 wrote:

Just out of curiosity last night I went out for a spin on the 80's Peugeot I've been rescuing for my son.

Hmmmm... To the shed! 8)

fungus_the_muffin_man

It always does feel faster. Yet when I bought my new Carbon comapred to my alu I though I'd blitzed my 30 mile time, as it was I beat it by 1 minute.

Bar Shaker

Carbon frames will reduce road buzz and this will transfer into much better stamina.

You will feel powerful for longer.

How many steel bikes are there in the Tour peleton?

desweller

Bar Shaker wrote:

How many steel bikes are there in the Tour peloton?

With reference to the earlier comment, you don't get wings, slick tyres and 18,000rpm engines in road cars either. The gains from steel to carbon are minimal. The comfort question is not a factor either. How many touring frames are made of steel?

reformer

Carbon frames will reduce road buzz and this will transfer into much better stamina.

Really, I wondered where I'd been going wrong! Fixing potholes might reduce some "buzz" aswell

markos1963

Bar Shaker wrote:

Carbon frames will reduce road buzz and this will transfer into much better stamina.

You will feel powerful for longer.

How many steel bikes are there in the Tour peloton?

None, because the teams aren't paid to ride them. They get paid to ride the latest carbon by companies that have to sell them to the general public.