Sympathy with the Devil

meanredspider

I've been in Glasgow for a week and I'm beginning to have sympathy with the views of some car drivers about city cyclists. I honestly can't believe some of the riding I've seen - in particular the brazen RLJing of large junctions. Frankly I'm surprised that not more cyclists are killed. I also can believe that some drivers begin to think that cyclists don't care about their own safety so why should they.

I know that this is a slightly controversial view on here but I'm beginning to think that cyclists are cyclists own worst enemies. I doubt most of the folk on here behave like that but I'm quite shocked by what I've seen (and I've commuted in Cambridge for quite a number of years)

jeremyrundle

+1

And you hear people here complaining that "responsible" cyclists would not use an air zound horn to warn a pedestrian who steps odd the pavement when a car owner would use his horn and yet cyclists still ride on pavements, jump lights and use pedestrian crossings to cycle over.

Kieran_Burns

jeremyrundle wrote:

+1

And you hear people here complaining that "responsible" cyclists would not use an air zound horn to warn a pedestrian who steps odd the pavement when a car owner would use his horn and yet cyclists still ride on pavements, jump lights and use pedestrian crossings to cycle over.

Oh, do shut up.

dhope

jeremyrundle wrote:

+1

And you hear people here complaining that "responsible" cyclists would not use an air zound horn to warn a pedestrian who steps odd the pavement when a car owner would use his horn and yet cyclists still ride on pavements, jump lights and use pedestrian crossings to cycle over.

more of a shoehorn to get that point in :roll:

notsoblue

I think that what the world *definitely* needs is more people talking about cyclists jumping red lights and being a danger unto themselves :P

Nik Cube

I see more pi33 poor driving than I see bad riding no wonder i distrust all drivers and treat them all like brain dead half wits

look it works both ways

sketchley

Today in when cycling in London I breifly consider speeding up to make the traffic light on Amber, I decide not and start to coast up to ASL. I then here a car behind me and some distance away start accelerating hard then come past me at some speed on the wrong side of the road while I'm waiting on in the ASL. It's very debatable if they even made the amber or not. I think not.

Lights turn green I continue and of course at next set of lights I ride past said car sitting in the queue.

meanredspider

I'm not excusing bad driving I'm just shocked by the amount of bad cycling I've seen in the last few days. Since there are far more cars on the road, it isn't surprising that we see more idiot driving. Besides that, idiot driving doesn't excuse idiot cycling - if anything it makes it all the more foolish.

Stopping my car at a red light, I made sure I gave a cyclist I'd passed 100m back plenty of room to get ahead of me. Imagine my dismay when he passed by and, looking left and right, accelerated across the junction. Maybe you guys see this every day or do it yourselves but I can understand why a motorist wouldn't be so considerate the next time.

Initialised

TBH lots of the rules of the road don't make internally consistent logical sense for motorists, more so for bikes.

When the law respects cyclists (most) cyclists will respect the law.

:flamebait:

shouldbeinbed

Initialised wrote:

TBH lots of the rules of the road don't make internally consistent logical sense for motorists, more so for bikes.

When the law respects cyclists (most) cyclists will respect the law.

:flamebait:

There needs to be an emoticon like the little smash alien waving its legs in the air laughing so hard.

And one with a crowbar for JR.

ellieb

Welcome to a big city

Initialised

shouldbeinbed wrote:

Initialised wrote:

TBH lots of the rules of the road don't make internally consistent logical sense for motorists, more so for bikes.

When the law respects cyclists (most) cyclists will respect the law.

:flamebait:

There needs to be an emoticon like the little smash alien waving its legs in the air laughing so hard.

And one with a crowbar for JR.

Try this little selection: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/mis ... Editor_001

meanredspider

ellieb wrote:

Welcome to a big city

Yup - I've obviously been away too long - I just begin to see why some cyclists might not get the respect from some motorists that the cyclists think they deserve. Trouble is, the rest of us get tarred with the same brush.

Any of the helmet-cam guys ever used the footage to report another cyclist? That's the day we'll know we're taking responsibility *provocative smiley*

Wallace1492

It happens all the time in Glasgow. Think the drivers look at you funny if you actually stop at a red light....

notsoblue

meanredspider wrote:

ellieb wrote:

Welcome to a big city

Yup - I've obviously been away too long - I just begin to see why some cyclists might not get the respect from some motorists that the cyclists think they deserve. Trouble is, the rest of us get tarred with the same brush.

Any of the helmet-cam guys ever used the footage to report another cyclist? That's the day we'll know we're taking responsibility *provocative smiley*

Now you're just trolling...

meanredspider

notsoblue wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

ellieb wrote:

Welcome to a big city

Yup - I've obviously been away too long - I just begin to see why some cyclists might not get the respect from some motorists that the cyclists think they deserve. Trouble is, the rest of us get tarred with the same brush.

Any of the helmet-cam guys ever used the footage to report another cyclist? That's the day we'll know we're taking responsibility *provocative smiley*

Now you're just trolling...

Eh????

It's a serious point though. A week on Glasgow and I've already got less sympathy with the views I see expressed on here. If us cyclists want to criticise drivers, I think we need our own house a little bit more in order first. I reckon something like 1/3rd of the cyclists I've seen have been doing something not altogether legal (from jumping lights, no lights at night, riding on pedestrian pavements etc). If car drivers flouted the law so brazenly, it would be mayhem. Expecting anything different is just a huge case of double-standards and hyprocracy. I know that this probably isn't a popular view.

Cafewanda

meanredspider wrote:

[It's a serious point though. A week on Glasgow and I've already got less sympathy with the views I see expressed on here. If us cyclists want to criticise drivers, I think we need our own house a little bit more in order first. I reckon something like 1/3rd of the cyclists I've seen have been doing something not altogether legal (from jumping lights, no lights at night, riding on pedestrian pavements etc). If car drivers flouted the law so brazenly, it would be mayhem. Expecting anything different is just a huge case of double-standards and hyprocracy. I know that this probably isn't a popular view.

If? What do you mean 'if'? :?

Maybe it's a London thing.

notsoblue

meanredspider wrote:

If us cyclists want to criticise drivers, I think we need our own house a little bit more in order first..

Ok then fella, how are we going to do this? I mean, other than starting self-flagellating posts on cycle forums of course...

I find your view offensive because it implies that I'm partly to blame whenever a driver almost kills me on the road through malice because other cyclists ride badly.

craker

and of course what we mostly whinge about _is_ bad drivers; drivers passing too close using horns being aggressive etc;

There are bad cyclists as much as there are bad drivers. I'm able to recognise that not all car drivers are The Enemy because some tw*t got too close to me. Most car drivers are probably savvy enough to realise that not all cyclists ride on pavements and ignore red lights.

Wallace1492

notsoblue wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

If us cyclists want to criticise drivers, I think we need our own house a little bit more in order first..

Ok then fella, how are we going to do this? I mean, other than starting self-flagellating posts on cycle forums of course...

I find your view offensive because it implies that I'm partly to blame whenever a driver almost kills me on the road through malice because other cyclists ride badly.

Some people need a chill pill....

Look, meanredspider is down in the big city.... he is seeing horseless carriages for the first time, magical posts with lamps on top, buildings without hay for a roof, shops, pubs and the like.

Plenty of poor cyclists about, that's life - not a lot we can do about it. At least they are not as dangerous as poor drivers...

notsoblue

Wallace1492 wrote:

Some people need a chill pill....

Look, meanredspider is down in the big city.... he is seeing horseless carriages for the first time, magical posts with lamps on top, buildings without hay for a roof, shops, pubs and the like.

Plenty of poor cyclists about, that's life - not a lot we can do about it. At least they are not as dangerous as poor drivers...

Ok ok, I had an off tone in that post. But what I say still stands though, I just don't see what the point of posting on a cycle forum to express sympathy for drivers who treat cyclists badly?

I've been on the receiving end of abuse for simply using a bike on the road, and that doesn't bother me so much. Its just part of life. But it does bother me when people try to defend or rationalise this poor behaviour by making out that I share some of the responsibility for other's. It makes no sense... I don't give a sh1t if the guy who is tailgating me and honking their horn for me to get out of their way in heavy traffic has just seen someone run a red light. They're two independent events as far as I'm concerned.

Robstar24

Sketchley wrote:

Today in when cycling in London I breifly consider speeding up to make the traffic light on Amber, I decide not and start to coast up to ASL. I then here a car behind me and some distance away start accelerating hard then come past me at some speed on the wrong side of the road while I'm waiting on in the ASL. It's very debatable if they even made the amber or not. I think not.

Lights turn green I continue and of course at next set of lights I ride past said car sitting in the queue.

on the A404 going up into harlesden i saw a ped coming to the beacon crossing, I stopped to let her cross, three cars went past before one stopped.

plenty of bad riding I see from many london cyclists, and equally lots and lots of bad driving. However the attitude of many non-cyclists seems to be that when a cyclist transgresses a rule of the road it was done deliberately and with blue murder in mind and should be punished accordingly, whereas a similar transgression by a motorist is at worst careless. and this attitude pervades the legal system, where dangerous drivers are given piddly sentences (yet the tabloid press views any demand that motorists - of which I am one btw - obey the rules as a war on the motorist).

generally, people hate on cyclists because not many of us are cyclists, whereas many pedestrians are also motorists, and nearly all motorists are peds at some point too.

Wallace1492

I agree notsoblue, just think meanred was making the point that he was surprised at how high the level of poor cycling was, and was maybe a little tongue in cheek regarding having sympathy for the motorist.

Bad driving is inexcusable.

Robstar24

but then again I very very rarely have trouble with motorists, the most recent incident was nearly a year ago when cycling out of london towards orpington on the A21 on a sunday morning, a car slowed down behind me as there was a traffic island coming up, and the knuckle draggers in the white van behind decided that this 2 second delay to their journey was unacceptable and so honked their horn. otherwise I get on just fine with most car drivers

meanredspider

Wallace1492 wrote:

Some people need a chill pill....

Look, meanredspider is down in the big city.... he is seeing horseless carriages for the first time, magical posts with lamps on top, buildings without hay for a roof, shops, pubs and the like.

Plenty of poor cyclists about, that's life - not a lot we can do about it. At least they are not as dangerous as poor drivers...

LMAO - yup, it's all a bit overwhelming in the big smoke! (for balance, my kids were born in Brussels, I grew up in Cambridge (possibly the most densely-cycled city in the UK), and my last job was 8 months in Guangzhou in China - I've seen a few bicycles).

But, yes, the more balanced voices have got me right on this. There's no excusing pi55 poor driving (as I said before) - none whatsoever. BUT I do now have a better understanding of the prejudice (and I mean that literally) that exists about cyclists amongst even the best drivers. We aren't above criticism as a road-using group. I'm sorry if that upsets people but if, as a committed and life-long cyclist myself, my hackles get raised by some folk on bikes, I can understand why someone who has never ridden a bike gets upset.

mattsaw

I agree, to an extent......

The problem is that 'cyclists' aren't a homogenius group. They cover everything from a 5 year old kids, old women on bikes that never leave the pavement, blokes using one to head back from the pub on a Friday night, teenagers with no lights or helmets, and lycra clad roadies.

Trying to think that you can influence any of those people, or even thinking that many of them give a toss how other cyclists are percieved is just going to be a waste of time just as much as any single motorist is going to stop the rest of them from speeding or drink-driving.

deptfordmarmoset

Bad cycling is no better than bad driving when viewed from a moral and competence or ability perspective. However, a bad cyclist is likely to only put theirself at danger while a bad driver is far more likely to take others out - be they passengers, innocent bystanders or cyclists. The stakes are very, very different.

To which you have to add that a frustrated driver (and driving has become progressively more frustrating, not to mention more expensive) will be looking for someone to take his or her frustration out on. Bikes are the perfect scapegoat - they're smaller, slower, an unrepresented and unregulated minority. Ripe for bullying and blaming.

And when there's a surfeit of cars blocking up a road, most probably backed up at lights, and a cyclist comes along and filters past them, they resent this ability to move. Because the dream says that it's the car that gave them mobility. Homo bicyclens breaks that rule. Cyclists will be hated for that. And yes, they are. But cyclists are always going to be seen as the outsiders.

And the main reason they're backed up at the lights is because motorists have proved time and time again that they can't be trusted to organise themselves safely enough without councils having to bulk-buy traffic lights and the hospitals having to find room for more beds, theatres and morgues. Most sets of traffic lights are simply a testament to driver stupidity.

Until someone can provide evidence of one set of traffic lights in the UK installed to protect others from cyclists (and it's about the 6th time I've issued this challenge) the truth will remain that cyclists are caught up in the solution to a problem that they don't create.

Disclaimer: personally, I avoid RLJ-ing, but that's purely out of a sense of fellow road companionship with other users. It's definitely not from any illusion that the lights are there for cyclists' safety or to protect others from cyclists. Lights are simply not there for cyclists. I obey them but I understand why others disregard them - ignoring them is like an equal and answering disrespect.

daviesee

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

Disclaimer: personally, I avoid RLJ-ing, but that's purely out of a sense of fellow road companionship with other users. It's definitely not from any illusion that the lights are there for cyclists' safety or to protect others from cyclists. Lights are simply not there for cyclists. I obey them but I understand why others disregard them - ignoring them is like an equal and answering disrespect.

I agree 100% with the rest of the sentiments but I can't agree with the above.

With increased cycling, take away traffic lights and cars completely and there would be mayhem with SCRs flying into each other on a regular basis. Yes, the mortality rate would be low or non-existant but there would be accidents and damage.

meanredspider

Yeah - I'm not really trying to argue that cyclists should regulate other cyclists - thats's unrealistic. What I am saying though is that, like it or not (I don't) we're all caught under the banner of "cyclists" to many (both good and bad) drivers and, as ever on life, there's a minority of to55ers out there that have used up the goodwill of much of the driving community and (as above) it might have been in short supply in the first place. I don't have solutions to offer other than I go out of my way to be super-courteous to the drivers I meet on my commute - but then I am out on the sticks though I still meet the bad ones.