Self Defence Question

dualistic

On the news recently there has been some reports of use of cameras to record incidents as proof of driving wrong doing. I have ordered that mini dv clone camera off ebay and i will use it and definitely keep it on for use when i go to particularly busy areas.

My question is about self defence. I appreciate its probably best just to remain calm and not to do anything if you are confronted - but this could be easier said than done. In 1.5 years of commuting i didnt have a single problem until a few weeks ago when i was unlucky to catch some party goers driving home at 5am. They drove up behind me and threw some fruit at me that i guess happened to be in the car, then drove off shouting something unfunny & moronic ... i wasnt hurt and i wasnt scared at all...i was surprised more than anything..... and i would love to meet each of them one to one to 'discuss' the incident!!!! Cowards. They wouldnt have done anything had they walked past me in the street.... and ive done stupid stuff when i was younger so i guess you could call it Karma....

Anyway, i did wonder whether they might stop and decide to take i further. Luckily for them they didnt :-) but it got me thinking what can alone rider do on a quiet road early in the morning? or time? Anyone given this any thought? There probably is a thread on it....

Apart from actual physical self defence you could key the car given the chance, but the idea i came up with was to keep my water bottle full (i dont use it) with a home made concoction - something like chilli, salt, food dye, smelly etc etc... something that when sprayed would take some weeks to wash out of clothing or a car.... it wouldnt physically hurt them but it would create a big inconvenience in cleaning and smelling really really bad.

This situation hasnt come up and hopefully never will but you never know. The way people drive now is getting alittle too fast & crazy. I think its going to get worse as people become more disconnected from each other, ever more self involved and lose touch with reality .... people dont realise how vulnerable we are when they zoom past fast and close...

This post is was gonna be 3-4 lines!!! Sorry for rambling...

mattsaw

Personally I don't think it's needed. I think if you react to incidents in a calm and polite manner you can diffuse almost all situations.

Even seeing some cyclists that actually confront drivers, done calmly it actually puts even the most aggressive people on the back foot. Going in shouting the odds and using aggressive body language will almost always escalate the situation.

I tend to be quite calm, usually muttering under be breath and giving withering looks and I've never had any problems in 3-4 years. One of the guys I ride with will almost always stop to yell and shout and he's constantly ending up in flashpoints. One of these ended up with him punching-out the window of the car, fair enough he made is point, but what did it actually achieve?

butcher of bakersfield

Is it self defence you're looking for, or retaliation?

Sounds to be the latter from your suggestions. You're likely to get into some fisticuffs pretty quick if you employ those techniques.

dualistic

butcher of bakersfield wrote:

Is it self defence you're looking for, or retaliation?

Sounds to be the latter from your suggestions. You're likely to get into some fisticuffs pretty quick if you employ those techniques.

Hmmmm..... i agree with you AND there is a fine line between the two in certain circumstances. Although my post is long this is not actually a big issue, its something that happened recently and it got my mind running enough to ask fellow cyclists what ideas, if any, they have. I was angry after the event that they felt they could have their fun at my expense....

As i said in my post, remaining calm is the best policy....

butcher of bakersfield

I have actually heard of people using chilli concoctions to keep dogs at bay. Possibly not a bad idea if you find yourself in a really sticky situation.

But generally, best form of defence, cycle away. Nip down a small alley or trail if you have to. It's not really worth the bother. Other than knifing them, I'm not sure there's many other alternatives...

acidstrato

D lock or steel pump... 2 blows to the head should squash any aggression made towards you..

unixnerd

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abIz1KZOOzg :-)

Hoopdriver

Defense is an issue I think about too - I tend to ride very early in the morning, between 4:30 and 6:30am and I live near a fairly rough down-at-heel seaside town and very often I encounter roving mobs of drunks coming home from pubs, parties, their latest break-and-enter, whatever. Not in cars but on foot. Often they yell at me, sometimes throw rocks and the other morning a couple gave very aggressive chase. I easily out-paced tem, but it did get me thinking.

If they had been coming down the street, instead of my coming up behind them, they could easily have fanned out and things could have been very unpleasant. A can of oven cleaner spray was something I was considering...

motdoc

In traffic jams, if cut up, my mate suggests opening the back door, lights flash, car bings, driver has to get out close the door etc, no harm done.

jeremyrundle

Chili can be seen as a dangerous weapon like pepper spray, I asked this once at the local police station and was advised that the best thing to carry is a small spray water bottle set to jet not spray filled with lemon juice like jiff you put on your pancakes, stings like pepper and totally harmless so no chance of being sued.

On occasions I hace carried a sqeezy jiff lemon filled to the top, try it.

jeremyrundle

acidstrato wrote:

D lock or steel pump... 2 blows to the head should squash any aggression made towards you..

So you want them to get that close, ok if they are not a black belt, use something that can be effective at 10'.

Moodyman

Ride assertively and expect the unexpected. Thank good driving gestures and ignore the not-so-good.

You'll avoid far more 'situations' this way.

dualistic

"On occasions I hace carried a sqeezy jiff lemon filled to the top, try it."

Thats a nice simplified ready made version..... (to which nasty smell could be added)..and yes, hopefully never to be used - i want a hassle free ride always.

dualistic

Moodyman wrote:

Ride assertively and expect the unexpected. Thank good driving gestures and ignore the not-so-good.

You'll avoid far more 'situations' this way.

Yes, riding assertively is all well and good in a normal built up area in daylight hours but the thread is about self defence (or pre-emptive strike) when youve done absolutely nothing and 'they' come up behind you on a quiet poorly lit road... (and going up hill!!).

Note : this is just exchange of ideas that i hope i never have to call upon... but you never know.

pidism

In relation to Self Defence - you will need to be careful...... You can employ self defence if you feel you are under risk of imminent or actual attack and use reasonable force to repel your attacker - example > fist to fist. Not D lock to fist or other improvised weapon.
That would be perceived in a court as attack and more than reasonable force.
Dont key a car of an indiotic driver. This could get you run over or locked up for criminal damage.

Best thing to do is totally avoid confrontation as much as is humanly possible. If a car driver is being a prat, get on the kerb, ride down alleyways to avoid them (clock his registration if a report is required). At least your avoidance tactics will keep you safe from your pursuer.

Hard to avoid every idiot, but a good turn of speed and tolerance is safest.
Tolerance is what allows people like us to put up with everyone else.[/quote]

turnerjohn

Moodyman wrote:

Ride assertively and expect the unexpected. .

no way a guarrenty though is it ?! The guy here is passed by a car...no problems there...the issues with the passengers.....the driver MAY not have been a fault ...if they were drunk that is !

Valy

Crossed my mind a bit lately too.

Since I just found out that pepper spray is illegal in the UK( well, without a firearms licence?) the lemon juice seems like a pretty cool idea.

Though at the same time... not sure if I would be too willing to carry a bottle with me all the time. If it's just an a-hole in traffic I'm not sure it would be worth stopping and spraying them as it would only escalate things - of course there are times when it would be appropriate and so on, but they are quite far and few between... BUT those are the ones that count.

dualistic

turnerjohn wrote:

Moodyman wrote:

Ride assertively and expect the unexpected. .

no way a guarrenty though is it ?! The guy here is passed by a car...no problems there...the issues with the passengers.....the driver MAY not have been a fault ...if they were drunk that is !

Fyi, the driver was in on it.... he slowed downed behind so they could take aim (cowards) and stopped for 1-2 seconds ahead whilst the main idiot shouted words....

mattsaw

turnerjohn wrote:

Moodyman wrote:

Ride assertively and expect the unexpected. .

no way a guarrenty though is it ?! The guy here is passed by a car...no problems there...the issues with the passengers.....the driver MAY not have been a fault ...if they were drunk that is !

Of course it isn't, but when you leave your front door you're not guaranteed not to get mugged, but do you always go tooled-up with a kitchen knife?

MichaelW

pidism wrote:

In relation to Self Defence - you will need to be careful...... You can employ self defence if you feel you are under risk of imminent or actual attack and use reasonable force to repel your attacker - example > fist to fist. Not D lock to fist or other improvised weapon.
That would be perceived in a court as attack and more than reasonable force.

That is just plain incorrect. If you feel you are being threatened with violence you can defend yourself using reasonable force. You dont have to react with exactly the same force (eg fist for fist).

You cant carry any item specifically to defend yourself so chille concoctions are illegal.
You can legally carry a shackle lock. You can make use of it in a self defence situation.

In my experience, the best way to defend yourself against a thug when on a bike and you cant ride away is to raise your bike and use it as a fence. Watch your back if there is more than one (and there usually is). Get out of Dodge City as quickly as you can. If you cant run, try to out manouvre the thug using parked cars, lamp posts etc. They will soon get bored.

If you need to take someone down then hit them with your shackle lock, but not in the head. You might miss and find yourself in a grappling match you will loose. You might kill them. Better to duck down and swipe their knee or lower leg .

If you intend to defend yourself, do the thinking and planning now. Keep your shackle quick to deploy. Plan to hit then run. Never hang around to get one last hit in. If you want to call the cops, think before you speak. It is your words, not your actions that will send you to jail. Criminals all know the correct form of legalese to use when talking to cops. The thug you just hit knows what to say and will have witnesses to back him up and all the legal aid your taxes can pay for.

flimflam_machine

I've not been in any confrontations (touch wood), but this has crossed my mind recently. It did occur to me that spd shoes generally have quite hard soles, so a kick to the knee/shins may provide enough distraction for you to hop on your bike and be off. Using your bike as a fence does seem like a useful tip too.

That is just plain incorrect. If you feel you are being threatened with violence you can defend yourself using reasonable force. You dont have to react with exactly the same force (eg fist for fist).

This sounds correct to me. I'm not a lawyer, but my recollection is that in a stressful situation the law does not expect you to judge precisely what is the minimum force required to defend yourself.

AndyManc

I get it all the time.

Your best option is to stop, make sure you get the vehicle registration number and phone the police.

Once you get your headcam take the footage to your local police.

I work shifts and cycle at all hours and see drunk/ drugged drivers all the time, speeding,driving recklessly ..... but at times when there's no one around it's unwise to take the law into your own hands.

BTW, I've bought a number of headcams but I rarely wear them, too much hassle, but they are a great idea and I should know better.


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shouldbeinbed

I ride in the same city, 7 day shifts odd hours and on the less cycle savvy north side but rarely get problems. It does seem to be a certain type of person that sees/feels problems.

I've had a pie thrown at my back, assault - probably in the letter of the law. worth the hassle of pursuing physically there and then & legally - no. worth getting het up about or getting into tit for tat revenge escalation - grow up.

As to self defence, if you go out with something incongrouous like a jif lemon squeezy or chilli water that you couldn't reasonably claim as a drink then premeditation could easily be argued: you've gone out 'armed' and awaiting an excuse to use it rather than simply defending yourself with whatever is to hand.

Its not a victim mentality, its picking my battles in life

Hoopdriver

That's fine.

I'd rather have that academic discussion about whether I should have been carrying lemon juice, ammonia or whatever AFTER the fact. Or as we used to say back in the good ole US of A, where I originally came from, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six

AndyManc

Hoopdriver wrote:

better to be judged by twelve than carried by six

'Adds to his useful quotes nobody has heard before and may make me sound interesting list '




.

Blue Meanie

Meh...
been to court twice over these sorts of situations. Both times the driver found out I wasn't a schoolkid doing papers, and when they confronted me were suprised to find a fully grown adult male, who's reasonabley above average fit and strong.
Looking back, I could have avoided the situations worsening if I chose to let my ego suffer, and now this is what I generally do.

Really, stay calm, don't fight back; just defend yourself if you have to.

chipandpin

Blue Meanie wrote:

Really, stay calm, don't fight back; just defend yourself if you have to.

+1 to that - having trained in mixed martial arts for a few years (albeit not for the past year or so) I have found that the best defense is to avoid confrontation, but to be prepared for it if and when it arises.

Taking a few classes in something like thai boxing or kickboxing will help you learn how to quickly defend yourself without ending up in a scrap. One or two blows in the right place (knee joints for example) will give you more than enough time to put some distance between you and and attacker.

I personally would never use anything such as a lock or spray or pump to defend myself. If you don't knock the person out on your first strike, you are suddenly in a very dangerous situation.

dualistic

Mattsaw wrote:

turnerjohn wrote:

Moodyman wrote:

Ride assertively and expect the unexpected. .

no way a guarrenty though is it ?! The guy here is passed by a car...no problems there...the issues with the passengers.....the driver MAY not have been a fault ...if they were drunk that is !

Of course it isn't, but when you leave your front door you're not guaranteed not to get mugged, but do you always go tooled-up with a kitchen knife?

I always leave the front door "tooled up"!! There isnt a day that passes when i'm not carrying a fully loaded self sharpening kuru toga retractable pencil with 400 million 'nano-diamonds' per lead ...... and sometimes i dont even use it :P

I also keep my hat and gloves with me incase it gets a bit 'chilli'...... and a couple of salt & pepper sachets that you get from coffee shops - might come in handy one day.... ok, i better stop before i embarrass myself :oops:

I agree with all who say stay calm, as i said in the original post - and i would. Any reaction to a confrontation is going to escalate it - no doubt. But if someone is intent on starting something - which could very likely happen in this crazy world - then some fore-thought might come in handy - eg, the £7 camera on your helmet... or some smelly coloured concoction :twisted:

clarkey cat

i was once cycling home from work late at night and saw a guy pushing his bike along the road, I pulled up alongside him and asked if he needed a hand - he responded with some pretty colourful language so I cycled off - he jumped on his bike in hot pursuit and cycled next to me for about 2 miles telling me how he was going to knife me and that a load of his mates were up ahead and they'd kill me. I swung my fist into his face so he fell off his bike, jumped down, knocked him about a bit (he got a couple in too) and then sped off in a different direction and jumped on a train with my bike, it was then I'd realised his sovereign ring had gashed my face open and my face and shirt was a bleeding mess. Was a very weird night.

zorg2000

Best to put your ego aside, and get out of the situation as quickly as possible. Focus on getting away rather than fighting. Even with martial arts experience you dont know if the thug/s have such experience too, how many there are or if they are armed. It is very easy to think you are bigger/stronger when in a situation only to have to backpedal when there are more of them than you thought. And you have just made them angry.

However, if you do find yourself in a corner and you have exhausted all reasonable options including using a calm, non threatening voice then use whatever you can to ward them off. Make sure its bicycle related so there are no issues in court later - D-lock, spare (steel) seatpost / top tube that you always carry with you etc.

Phate

Do what you can to avoid getting into a scrap and in case it can't be avoided learn Krav Maga so the scrap will be over quickly and you won't be late home!!