Enrty level bikes with ineffective suspension forks

The Spiderman

Was just looking at the new Boardman range and saw this: http://www.boardmanbikes.com/mtb/ht_compr.html

Which made me ponder,the question as to why entry level bikes bother with suspension forks?

If its not possible to build entry level bikes with effective suspension forks why bother,lugging around an extra 2 lbs of dead weight when you could have some nice carbon rigid forks?

I know its done by the manufacturers for marketing reasons,but I think that its generally accepted that,you don`t bother with rear suspension on sub £1k bikes so why persevere with suspension forks on anything sub £700.

Your views?

cooldad

Same reason Apollo make full sus BSO's for £150. People buy them.
And for many people a basic fork is sufficient for canal paths, fireroads etc.
My first front sus bike, a Marin with horrible forks was all I could afford, but I loved it anyway, had loads of fun and upgraded the forks when they died. They were adequate initially.
I now have a full sus with decent suspension, but also ride an old rigid sometimes.
You have to start somewhere.

bluechair84

Naa, bottom end forks are getting much better these days. I've been very well looked after by a set of Suntours on a £500 GT avalanche - even the Tektro Auriga hydro brakes were all right. It's true that many cheap bikes are designed to look the part with no care for their actual performance - but since when did people who buy those bikes actually buy them for performance?
The Avalanche was eventually destroyed by my careless abuse over rocky trails but had it only been used by my then-girlfriend, which is the audience it was built for (beginners) it would have lasted years.

I will agree with the OP but reduce the intro price for bikes with effective front sus to be £500 - and that an ok fork isn't better than a good, cheaper rigid. At this price it's swings n fall-off-abouts. But they can work fine.

The Spiderman

I just wonder if people realise that they could have as much fun with rigid forks.My first offroading forays were on a rigid Saracen hybrid!

Think I`ve said it before but it would be good to see if a manufacturer would be brave enough to offer entry level bikes,without suspension forks,and put the moeny into the frame and wheels,as a starting point for upgrading.

The spec on the Boardman linked to above,is really interesting.Not sure what the price is yet but its 25lb,even allowing for the heavy but functional drivetrain and wheels spec.
Bet its more fun to ride than most 30lb entry level bikes..........

What are people`s ideas of a usable budget fork with decent rebound damping?

Realise that budget forks are weighty,but decent rebound damping is a must.

bluechair84

Skinny road tyres on it with no grip though, that'll save a fair whack of poundage.
Put some Maxxis Minions on it and it'll weight plenty!

Well, I know it's not a discussion of where people should start, but I think you learn a lot more on a rigid and as a beginner, a bike that weighs less is a real advantage whilst you build your fitness. It would be nice for some well specced bikes with rigid options available - The GT Peace was a right interesting beasty, twas a 29er though too.

Arkady001

The Spiderman wrote:

...I just wonder if people realise that they could have as much fun with rigid forks...

Probably not: marketing and the cycling press have propagated the myth that suspension = better = more fun.

Good suspension may enable you to go faster over rougher terrain for longer with less effort and strain than a rigid bike, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's more fun...unless your idea of 'fun' is going faster over rough terrain..etc etc etc

Think of it this way - those entry-level bikes must weigh a ton - think how fit those people will get pedalling them round while they learn to ride properly: it'd take them twice as long to develop 'legs' on a lightweight rigid...lol

The Spiderman

The GT Peace is a good example.It being a 29er,probably made the lack of suspension less of an issue too.

I`ve ridden a mates rigid carbon forked 29er a few times,and whilst roots were a bit of a problem.it was great fun everywhere else.

Don`t get me wrong,Im fond of my Rebas but given the choice of something like a Dart or cheap Suntour I think I`d rather take the carbon rigid fork.

Also,given that you can now get a relaible budget hydraulic disc that performs virtually as well,as higher end offering,albeit with more weight,isn`t it time that manufacturers could offer decently damped budget forks?

So entry level bike,with Alivio or Deore level drivetrain,Tektro Aurigas or Deore brakes,rigid forks, decent frame and wheels.Should be doable for £500...........

MountainMonster

The Spiderman wrote:

Also,given that you can now get a relaible budget hydraulic disc that performs virtually as well,as higher end offering,albeit with more weight,isn`t it time that manufacturers could offer decently damped budget forks?

But the thing is the cheap hydraulic brakes don't perform virtually as well as your saying compared to say a set of Hopes.

Power is way lower, modulation is not as good, lever feel is normally not as good, among numerous other things.

Alot of times I would prefer a set of cable discs over the cheapest hydraulic brakes. I sometimes even wonder about Juicy 3s as fitting into this category. I hate my Juicy 3's, and their one of the bargain offerings. Riding with my mates Hope M2s, you can feel miles of difference between the 2.

Dangermouse64

I started riding MTBs way back in the 80s and had a frame built out of 531 tubing with ordinary crown forks, that felt solid and went everywhere I pointed it, tet three years ago after a long lay off I decided to get a GT Zaskar elite with Rockshox Tora sl and I just couldnt get on with it, the Kinesis fram had a strange feeling to it like all the bike was flexing, I eventually gave in and sold it a year ago but looking back it was probably one bad frame that got through and should have been sent back for investigation.
Personally I wouldnt buy a sub £1k front suss bike now and I am in the process of building my dream bike yet the missus is more than happy with her Dawes XC Disc as it is light and does everything she wants from a bike, I have ridden it and its supprisingly very good

Stoowit

Ignorance is bliss.

People who spend money on these entry level bikes probably don't know any different. Not everyone understands the differences between budget and expensive forks, I know I don't as a beginner.

I'm currently loving hammering my budget bike around the woods and haven't given the slightest thought as to whether or not I'd be quicker, fitter or find it easier on a better bike.

My ignorance, for now at least is bliss.

paulbox

My first mtb was a fully rigid GT Backwoods. I think at the time it was £650 but I paid £450 for it as it was last years model.

I enjoyed it a lot while it was like that, stuck a pair of Marzocchi Bomber Z2 (lghts!) on and it was a scream.

The Spiderman

Mountain monster: If the latest WMB is to be believed the current Deore level 595s perform aswell as Shimano`s more expensive brakes.........

Something like a Juicy 3 isn`t probably such a good example of a cheap reliable brake........



Ignorance was bliss for me too.I`m not too fussy about bling kit,but like stuff that works and isn`t too heavy.It was a revelation going from my twangy Manitou s to lighter but stiffer better damped,RS Rebas,but I must admit the dual air function is probably wasted on me.

MountainMonster

The Spiderman wrote:

Mountain monster: If the latest WMB is to be believed the current Deore level 595s perform aswell as Shimano`s more expensive brakes.........

Something like a Juicy 3 isn`t probably such a good example of a cheap reliable brake........



Ignorance was bliss for me too.I`m not too fussy about bling kit,but like stuff that works and isn`t too heavy.It was a revelation going from my twangy Manitou s to lighter but stiffer better damped,RS Rebas,but I must admit the dual air function is probably wasted on me.

Your reading comprehension is terrible. I stated that the Juicy 3's are entry level, and are shiite compared to any other parts. And you have cited one decent example of entry level brakes being good, but that is the only one I have ever heard.

supersonic

But the thing is the cheap hydraulic brakes don't perform virtually as well as your saying compared to say a set of Hopes.

Power is way lower, modulation is not as good, lever feel is normally not as good, among numerous other things.

Hope X2 series are pretty poor on the power front though, and plent of budget ones work very well, if a little weighty. Even some of the higher end Hopes don't have the power of Deore, nor even the cheap Quads and Gusset brakes. I guess it depends what you want from the brake, some prefer the light weight over sheer power, others like modulation while some prefer a crisp bite.

As for forks, the reason why so many come with Suntours is that they cost about 10 quid to make, far less than a carbon fork. They are getting better though, XCRs and Dart 2 are workable with damping circuits, and Toras are appearing on 500 quid bikes now.

But I would like to see more decent steel forks on some lower end bikes, and V brakes over some cable discs.

Northwind

Tektro Aurigas are one of the classic budget brakes and they're shockingly good, kick the baws of brakes that cost twice as much. Well they would, they seem to be a Shimano knockoff but they're basic and they work well- good power, excellent feel. A wee bit outclassed by my Oros but then so are most brakes.

OTOH, my Suntour XCRs worked fine for a short time but then died due to the terrible seals- the suspension perforance was perfectly decent. But I'd far rather have my exotic carbon forks than another set of XCRs.

(then again I'd rather have my Revelation Teams than either)

The Spiderman

MountainMonster wrote:

The Spiderman wrote:

Mountain monster: If the latest WMB is to be believed the current Deore level 595s perform aswell as Shimano`s more expensive brakes.........

Something like a Juicy 3 isn`t probably such a good example of a cheap reliable brake........



Ignorance was bliss for me too.I`m not too fussy about bling kit,but like stuff that works and isn`t too heavy.It was a revelation going from my twangy Manitou s to lighter but stiffer better damped,RS Rebas,but I must admit the dual air function is probably wasted on me.

Your reading comprehension is terrible. I stated that the Juicy 3's are entry level, and are shiite compared to any other parts. And you have cited one decent example of entry level brakes being good, but that is the only one I have ever heard.

Not sure what was so terrible about my reading comprehension here? :roll:

MountainMonster

The Spiderman wrote:

MountainMonster wrote:

The Spiderman wrote:

Mountain monster: If the latest WMB is to be believed the current Deore level 595s perform aswell as Shimano`s more expensive brakes.........

Something like a Juicy 3 isn`t probably such a good example of a cheap reliable brake........



Ignorance was bliss for me too.I`m not too fussy about bling kit,but like stuff that works and isn`t too heavy.It was a revelation going from my twangy Manitou s to lighter but stiffer better damped,RS Rebas,but I must admit the dual air function is probably wasted on me.

Your reading comprehension is terrible. I stated that the Juicy 3's are entry level, and are shiite compared to any other parts. And you have cited one decent example of entry level brakes being good, but that is the only one I have ever heard.

Not sure what was so terrible about my reading comprehension here? :roll:

The point of the Juicy 3 comparison was to show that the cheap hydros (juicy 3s) are in no way near as good as decently built ones. You seem to think I was saying the Juicy 3s are on the way same level performance wise of higher models.

unixnerd

OTOH, my Suntour XCRs worked fine for a short time but then died due to the terrible seals

I got a set reduced down to under 40 quid! To be honest they're fine. If the weather is really foul they need to be stripped and cleaned once a month but it's an easy job.

mak3m

i got one of these bad boys, check out me rim brakes as well

http://www.bikepedia.com/quickbike/Bike ... &Type=bike

i dont even know what rebound dampning means

but just did a 38mile ride with an 8 mile middle section on single track as rough as it comes, rough terrain it helps lengthan the life of my wrists, and dropping into 2 foot deep potholes full of water and goo it takes a good whack when i hit the farside and need to climb out.

Im sure as I get more exsperianced, faster etc etc weight might be a consideration, but im not racing anyone so im ambivalent at the min just enjoying the ride

btw, thinking of new bike in the summer £500 - £700 mark, which is probably still considered entry level so im sure i will contiue for some time on crappy forks

getonyourbike

It makes perfect sense to me. Less weight and you don't get the horrible rebound clunk which can nearly knock your hands off the bars with some. It's that bad! For the bike in question, its an especially good idea. Perfect for the road/gravel path commuter.

Northwind

unixnerd wrote:

I got a set reduced down to under 40 quid! To be honest they're fine. If the weather is really foul they need to be stripped and cleaned once a month but it's an easy job.

Nah, they didn't last that long- fine in the summer then the weather went bad and 3 rides later the bushings were worn and the fork was slopping back and forth. The damage happened faster than you'd service them. Shame, all they need is a decent wiper seal and that'd cost, what, 50p more per fork.

ilovedirt

Arkady001 wrote:

Good suspension may enable you to go faster over rougher terrain for longer with less effort and strain than a rigid bike, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's more fun...unless your idea of 'fun' is going faster over rough terrain..etc etc etcl

That's precisely what my idea of fun is!