Converting from 53/39 to 50/34...

tailwindhome

I'm kicking around several different upgrade options for the roadbike, a secondhand Cannondale CAAD5 c2003

One possibility is replacing the wheels and drivetrain. This option would give a lighter wheelset (Prolite Como to probably Mavic Askium or Kyrsium Equipe or even Elite), renew the cassette and chain which are done and tend to skip cogs by themselves, and move to a compact chainset (for summer sportives in Donegal and the Mournes)


How big a job is this?

Is there anything I should be considering?

Will any bottom bracket fit the frame?

The shifters (105) are 9 speed - I assume I need a 9 cassette and compatible chain... are chainrings also 9 speed specific?


I could replace the full groupset but when I do cycle to work the bike is left outside and I don't want to invest too much in it.

jonginge

CJ to thread please

bigmat

Not sure Aksiums are much lighter than anything else. Good solid wheels though.

You'll need a 9 speed cassette, chain rings generally interchangeable between speeds / brands but you'll need a new chainset to go compact, can't just swap the rings (and to be honest it would probably work out cheaper just getting a new chainset anyway).

Bottom bracket will depend on what chainset you get - most should fit your bike (there are threading issues, but its largely standardised these days).

You may need to get a new front mech - not sure how much tolerance there is with 105 e.g. whether there are compact specific front mechs.

Nothing that scary involved, but it is quite a big / pricey job when you add it all up.

gtvlusso

TailWindHome wrote:

One possibility is replacing the wheels and drivetrain. This option would give a lighter wheelset (Prolite Como to probably Mavic Askium or Kyrsium Equipe or even Elite), renew the cassette and chain which are done and tend to skip cogs by themselves, and move to a compact chainset (for summer sportives in Donegal and the Mournes)

What groupset is it currently, all 105?

BB will be 68 x British Thread.

The front mech should work with compact or full size chansets, you will need to adjust the height of the mech on the seat tube and the cable length.

Chainrings - if the chainset spider is BCD 130 (fairly normal for Shimano) - then you can just buy new rings with BCD 130. However, I would be inclined to just buy a compact chainset and sell the old one!

You can use a 10 speed shimano mech and put it in the "B" position for 9 speed if a cheap one come up secondhand.

Wheelset will make the most difference, I would put my money here - I would not bother replacing anything that is not worn out unless I was racing and needed a weight/reliability advantage. So, new cassette and a chain - go for a 12-25 or 12-28 if you are doing a few hills.

Remember to coat every thread in coppaslip - it will stop seizing!

UndercoverElephant

I notice that SRAM have just released an 11-32 cog Apex system which they claim gives a wider ratio than a triple. This makes sense to me. Would it therefore not be possible to fit a longer-cage rear mech to a standard double set-up and fit a mountain bike style cassette to get the same kind of thing?

It'd be much cheaper for you.

Edit: Some further looking up suggests that the road specific rear mechs won't go past 30T at the rear, and they don't recommend going above 28T. You could try getting a MTB specific rear mech, though and that would work.

beverick

You say you don't want to invest too much on the frame but you're planning on spending £200 + on Mavics? Hmm. Personallly, I'd probably just replace like-for-like and just buy better rubber!

If your shifters are 9 speed then yes, you'll need a 9 speed drive-train. It's a strange question and I assume you actually mean can you go 10 speed or are they compatible with other makers kit..

The answer to the first question is not without changing the shifter(s) - which can be the most expensive part of changing the fdrive train. Also, going from 9-10 speed is more problematic as a 10 speed chain is narrower than a 8/9 speed one so you would almost certainly have to change the chainset. The chain and rear cassette are clearly 10 speed specific. nb, I notice that with the general move to 10 speed, 9-speed 105 kit is getting pretty thin on the ground.

If you mean can I use the Shimano shifters with other manufacturers kit and the answer is possibly. It depends on the length of cable pulled by the shifter and the length of pull required by the derailleur (or brake). In general, Shimano and Campag aren't interchangeable but SRAM/Truvativ and Shimano can be - LBS again I'm afraid!. BTW, it seems to be de rigeur to run shimano shifters/derailleurs and SRAM chain and cassette.

I run 105 STi's 105 derailleurs, SRAM casette and chain, Avid brakes and Truvativ crankset with a Shimano Ultegra 42T chainring, so hybrids do work.

Compatibility of bottom brackets is straight forward and tricky in the same breath. The tricky bit is that BB's need to be compatible with both the crankset that they are mated to, the frame with which they are used and the hole in which they fit. If you really want to confuse yourself read this: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html

The easy bit is that complete cranksets usually come with a BB included and your LBS will be able to tell you which cranksets are suitable for your frame.

Fitting the BB. You can do it yourself but you'll probably find that, the LBS will fit one for you for less than the £20+ you'll need to spend on a decent BB tool (ie one that doesn't bend, snap or slip when you use it for the one and only time in its life!). Also, the LBS will usually 'face' the BB shell when they fit a new one. It's not essential but if you get it done in with the price you're winning (a refacing tool will cost you upwards of £250 and that's assuming you don't write off the frame using it!)

You haven't mentioned brakes. In my experience these are one of the first components to wear out. If you're going to upgrade anything I'd suggest this is where your money should go first. Going fas is nice, but the ability to stop afterwards is nicer in my experience.

Bob

beverick

UndercoverElephant wrote:

I notice that SRAM have just released an 11-32 cog Apex system which they claim gives a wider ratio than a triple. This makes sense to me. Would it therefore not be possible to fit a longer-cage rear mech to a standard double set-up and fit a mountain bike style cassette to get the same kind of thing?

It'd be much cheaper for you.

Edit: Some further looking up suggests that the road specific rear mechs won't go past 30T at the rear, and they don't recommend going above 28T. You could try getting a MTB specific rear mech, though and that would work.

I'm not sure what the experience would be with a 'standard' double chainset and 11-32 block. I think that you would need a fairly uncomfortable 'double shift' (ie chainring down, cassette up) at some point in the middle ranges. One of the benefits of a triple is that there's never much of a difference between ratios.

As you mention most road based derailluers aren't supposed to work with anything larger than a 28T cassette. To get round this I run an XT MTB rear derailleur on the hybrid with a 'megarange' 11-34 cassette. There's a 48/36/26 triple on the front.

Bob

UndercoverElephant

beverick wrote:

UndercoverElephant wrote:

I notice that SRAM have just released an 11-32 cog Apex system which they claim gives a wider ratio than a triple. This makes sense to me. Would it therefore not be possible to fit a longer-cage rear mech to a standard double set-up and fit a mountain bike style cassette to get the same kind of thing?

It'd be much cheaper for you.

Edit: Some further looking up suggests that the road specific rear mechs won't go past 30T at the rear, and they don't recommend going above 28T. You could try getting a MTB specific rear mech, though and that would work.

I'm not sure what the experience would be with a 'standard' double chainset and 11-32 block. I think that you would need a fairly uncomfortable 'double shift' (ie chainring down, cassette up) at some point in the middle ranges. One of the benefits of a triple is that there's never much of a difference between ratios.

As you mention most road based derailluers aren't supposed to work with anything larger than a 28T cassette. To get round this I run an XT MTB rear derailleur on the hybrid with a 'megarange' 11-34 cassette. There's a 48/36/26 triple on the front.

Bob

But that's also one of the benefits of the standard double, in that there's a lot less overlap of gears than with a triple. Not to mention the fact that people may still think he has manly gearing.

For what it's worth, I do pretty hilly sportives on a standard double with a 12-26. There are times I'm struggling, but I've never had to walk. I think unless you're going up an Alp, you'll manage.

greg66_tri_v2.0

TailWindHome wrote:

How big a job is this?

Is there anything I should be considering?

Will any bottom bracket fit the frame?

The shifters (105) are 9 speed - I assume I need a 9 cassette and compatible chain... are chainrings also 9 speed specific?

Easy job(s). Not even big job(s) (phnar!).

BB will be 68mm English thread. Big thing is to get a BB that runs with you chainset - Campy with Campy, SRAM with SRAM, Shimano with Shimano. Simples. Just make sur you the right tools to fit the BB and chianset. But if you've got the tools and can turn a nut on a thread, (even) you should be ok.

Chainrings should be ok with either a 9 or 10 speed chain. But your new chain will have to be shorter than the old one if you are switching to a compact chain set. Plenty of resources on the web to help you get the right chain length. Just remember: measure twice, cut once. Still didn't stop me fcuking it up though.

Front mech will need to come down a bit, but Shimano stuff is fairly robust IME: I managed to get a triple standard Shim FD working on a double compact chain set.

9s cassette needs 9s chain, ditto 10s needs 10s. I don't think you'll get much joy running a 10s cassette with those shifters.

Can you not pick up the entire gruppo on a "deal"? Can work out less than buying the large bits individually.

barry_kellett99

TailWindHome wrote:

for summer sportives in Donegal and the Mournes

Links please!

tailwindhome

Thanks to everyone for your responses so far, I'll read them properly later and then ask more dumb questions

barry_kellett99 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

for summer sportives in Donegal and the Mournes

Links please!

I'll put on links later when I get a minute


The Donegal sportive is the Tour of Inishowen - organised by North Pole CC in June and goes over the legendary Mamore Gap after 80 miles.

Dromara CC run the sportive in the Mournes - IIRC you are familar with Spelga Dam, but you opt for single speed instead of compact.

barry_kellett99

TailWindHome wrote:

Thanks to everyone for your responses so far, I'll read them properly later and then ask more dumb questions

barry_kellett99 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

for summer sportives in Donegal and the Mournes

Links please!

I'll put on links later when I get a minute


The Donegal sportive is the Tour of Inishowen - organised by North Pole CC in June and goes over the legendary Mamore Gap after 80 miles.

Dromara CC run the sportive in the Mournes - IIRC you are familar with Spelga Dam, but you opt for single speed instead of compact.

Did it once on SS and clearly my competetive side got me up it. Been up it once since on the geared bike and can't believe I did it on 48x17. To be fair I nearly sprained my wee girly wrist hauling on the bars at the switchback corners.

I haven't done the mourne sportive yet, maybe this year. I'll have to see. I would like to do some riding around Donegal though, Did the Irish end to end the other year and the last section through Donegal was excellent

Fireblade96

I did a little riding round Malin head last summer, it's pretty hilly...I drove through Mamore Gap and it was impressively steep in the car ! Cycling up it's just mad...


...(OK, I'm possibly interested...)

UndercoverElephant

OK, I just Googled the Mamore Gap and found the elevation profile. It does look *pretty* steep, but it's maximum gradient is 11%, but it should be tough but do-able on a standard double. The whole climb is about 2 km, just stare at your front wheel and keep the pedals turning.

http://www.climbbybike.com/profile.asp? ... ainID=7202

I managed* Redstone Rigg on a standard double a couple of weekends back, and that has a section of 17.5% (admittedly, this is for about 500m, and the rest of the climb isn't as tough as Mamore).

*Managed as in I didn't walk or die. But nearly did both.

Wooliferkins

TailWindHome wrote:

Chainrings - if the chainset spider is BCD 130 (fairly normal for Shimano) - then you can just buy new rings with BCD 130. However, I would be inclined to just buy a compact chainset and sell the old one!

You won't get a true compact with this method as the smallest 130BCD chainring is 38T so as TailWindHome said the compact is the better option.

rjsterry

gtvlusso wrote:

Chainrings - if the chainset spider is BCD 130 (fairly normal for Shimano) - then you can just buy new rings with BCD 130. However, I would be inclined to just buy a compact chainset and sell the old one!

I've been looking at chainrings recently, as my 52/42T rings are looking pretty ropey. At the bottom end of the market (Shimano 2300 or Sora) a new chainset is cheaper than buying a pair of new rings by a significant margin.

bigmat

rjsterry wrote:

gtvlusso wrote:

Chainrings - if the chainset spider is BCD 130 (fairly normal for Shimano) - then you can just buy new rings with BCD 130. However, I would be inclined to just buy a compact chainset and sell the old one!

I've been looking at chainrings recently, as my 52/42T rings are looking pretty ropey. At the bottom end of the market (Shimano 2300 or Sora) a new chainset is cheaper than buying a pair of new rings by a significant margin.

Had this on my mountain bike, a new triple chainset worked out cheaper than a new ring, let alone set of rings! Swapped the rings across, I now have an unused set of MTB cranks if anyone is interested...

schweiz

gtvlusso wrote:

You can use a 10 speed shimano mech and put it in the "B" position for 9 speed if a cheap one come up secondhand.

As long as your shifters and cassettes match speed wise (9 spd, 10 spd), you don't need to worry about the alternative B routing. I currently use a 6700 derailleur with 6500 shifters on the BMC. I have previously used 6600 and 6500 all routed normally.

You only need to use the B routing if you want to use a 10 speed shifter and a 9 speed cassette.

barry_kellett99

BigMat wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

gtvlusso wrote:

Chainrings - if the chainset spider is BCD 130 (fairly normal for Shimano) - then you can just buy new rings with BCD 130. However, I would be inclined to just buy a compact chainset and sell the old one!

I've been looking at chainrings recently, as my 52/42T rings are looking pretty ropey. At the bottom end of the market (Shimano 2300 or Sora) a new chainset is cheaper than buying a pair of new rings by a significant margin.

Had this on my mountain bike, a new triple chainset worked out cheaper than a new ring, let alone set of rings! Swapped the rings across, I now have an unused set of MTB cranks if anyone is interested...

What model?
How much?

bigmat

Pretty sure they are these:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=46025

Alivio, square taper, 172.5mm (I'll double check this). Silver.

PM me if interested!

tailwindhome

Greg66 wrote:

Can you not pick up the entire gruppo on a "deal"? Can work out less than buying the large bits individually.

I've decided to work on the Caad5 instead of buying a new bike. UE makes a good case for MTFUing but having looked over the bike last night it;s obvious that the chain, cassette and to be fair the brakes need replaced and the shifters have seen better days


I had a new Shimano 105 5600 2010 groupset and a set of Fulcrum 5s in the basket from Merlin cycles last night but got cold feet and backed out.

Any views on wether the upgrade to 2011 5700 is worth it - be an extra £70

The spending has already started - replacement headset coming from CRC.

UndercoverElephant

For the same price as the 5600, Merlin have SRAM Apex groupset, which comes with a compact and the ability to run a wide-range rear mech. Save the £70 and put it towards even smarter wheels.

bigmat

Last month's Cycling Plus did a test comparing 105, Apex and Centaur. Apex won, but seemed to be based almost entirely on the fact that you can fit a dinner plate to the back wheel with it. I'd go Centaur of those 3, but if you like your Shimano I'd say £70 is a small price to pay for getting rid of those goddamn exposed cables on the 5600 105 - urgh!

Gussio

@ TailWindHome If you are planning to do a fair bit of fettling, £60 or so invested in a workstand (if you don't already have one) will be £60 well spent.

tailwindhome

* Bump*

So I didn't change the chainset in the end. I thought about a £70 105 Hollowtech Chainset (with BB cups) from Merlin Cycles but while I was thinking and counting my pennys someone else was buying and they sold out

Bottom line I bought a new cassette, chain and bar tape and the Caad 5 will get a mini fettle


Now the interesting part.

Wiggle have a Giant TCR Advanced 3 for the rather attractive price of £1299. There's a Tesco card (interest free for the first 13 months) winging it's way to me.....you know whats going to happen next

The catch in this otherwise lovely bike is that it is also a standard double. I'm thinking the best solution (for the value of all the serious climbing I do ) is to swap the cassette for one with a 28T low gear...does that make sense?

Any drawbacks to this plan?

cjcp

Sell the chainset it comes with and buy a compact.

greg66_tri_v2.0

TailWindHome wrote:

Now the interesting part.

Wiggle have a Giant TCR Advanced 3 for the rather attractive price of £1299. There's a Tesco card (interest free for the first 13 months) winging it's way to me.....you know whats going to happen next

The catch in this otherwise lovely bike is that it is also a standard double. I'm thinking the best solution (for the value of all the serious climbing I do ) is to swap the cassette for one with a 28T low gear...does that make sense?

Any drawbacks to this plan?

Umm, this one?

TailWindHome wrote:

W1 wrote:

And Brown has finally admitted he fecked up. Obviously the blame doesn't lie completely there, but Labour were the ones p!ssing money up the wall in the good times, bloating out the public sector and leaving the country with an almost impossible debt. And of course, leaving all the problems to someone else....

No the British Public pi55ed the money up against the wall

They borrowed and spent

They bought big screen TVs and threw away the old one, they bought 2nd and 3rd properties and rejoiced as the property market went up and up, not realising that it was only their own greed sustaining it. They 'released the equity' in their properties and splashed it on holidays and an endless stream of consumer goods they didn't need but had to have.

Labour spent on the Public sector, the Tories would have cut taxes....the end result would have been the same. No one was going to turn off the music while people were still dancing.

Greedy bankers only made money from a greedy public.


The really sad thing is we all got a warning only a decade before when the dot coms went tits up

'Please God just one more bubble'

tailwindhome

Greg66 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Now the interesting part.

Wiggle have a Giant TCR Advanced 3 for the rather attractive price of £1299. There's a Tesco card (interest free for the first 13 months) winging it's way to me.....you know whats going to happen next

<snip>

Any drawbacks to this plan?

Umm, this one?

TailWindHome wrote:

W1 wrote:

And Brown has finally admitted he fecked up. Obviously the blame doesn't lie completely there, but Labour were the ones p!ssing money up the wall in the good times, bloating out the public sector and leaving the country with an almost impossible debt. And of course, leaving all the problems to someone else....

No the British Public pi55ed the money up against the wall

They borrowed and spent

They bought big screen TVs and threw away the old one, they bought 2nd and 3rd properties and rejoiced as the property market went up and up, not realising that it was only their own greed sustaining it. They 'released the equity' in their properties and splashed it on holidays and an endless stream of consumer goods they didn't need but had to have.

Labour spent on the Public sector, the Tories would have cut taxes....the end result would have been the same. No one was going to turn off the music while people were still dancing.

Greedy bankers only made money from a greedy public.


The really sad thing is we all got a warning only a decade before when the dot coms went tits up

'Please God just one more bubble'

Difference is I have the cash sitting in the bank to pay for the bike. It makes more sense to leave it there gaining a wee bit of interest, use Tescos money to pay Wiggle, getting Tesco Clubcardpoints as a further discount

Good financial sense there Greg.

Obviously the card will be cut up as soon as the transaction is completed and the bike will repaid with in the 13 month period

Do I NEED a new carbon fibre bike?...don't ask stupid questions, off course I do