PTP: Should we ban Contador
Even if there's confusion in Madrid on the concept of strict liability, there's none here.
I know we have doping rules. but this feels like a special case.
It seems to me by the time he's banned Bertie could have b***** up the winning chances of anyone who's not prepared to pick him. Without him. PTP becomes more exciting and unpredictable.
So come on, he's going to ruin my Giro already; don't let him ruin PTP :evil:
I know we have doping rules. but this feels like a special case.
It seems to me by the time he's banned Bertie could have b***** up the winning chances of anyone who's not prepared to pick him. Without him. PTP becomes more exciting and unpredictable.
So come on, he's going to ruin my Giro already; don't let him ruin PTP :evil:
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Strava is not Zen.
Strava is not Zen.
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Nah - PTP is about what happens on the road.
If Contador is on the road, he's part of the racing.
End of.
Don't let PTP get sucked into the dirty vicious cycle of doping as well. It's the final bastion of pure racing content on the site!0 -
I agree with Rick.0
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Absolutely not. If he's part of the race, he has an impact on how that race develops and other riders' chances. Fully agree with Rick here.
I also don't see why Contador should be a special case. We didn't do anything similar with Valverde when he was clearly about to be banned. What about Mosquera? And there are scores of riders we all have our different ideas of dodginess of.
When I pick a rider that has nothing to do with whether or not I approve of that rider, like them, or think they should be there.0 -
+1, he has to be included for me.0
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+1
The purity of the prediction game must be preserved.0 -
He's going to ride the Giro and looks like a red hot favourite. But would you pick him for PTP knowing his case could be subject to appeal and that at some point in June he could get a ban and even ejected mid race?
I'd say "no ban" but pick him at your peril.
For what it's worth if I can't decide between two PTP picks then I always ask "which one is dirtier" and go for him. It usually pays off :twisted:0 -
PTP is not a politcal movement, Bertie & Co. should be kept in the mix.
Well done for propsing the question though. It demostrates the tension between ethical considerations and the quest for results that all sponsors, DSes and riders face. If they're subject to these tensions and trials of conscience, then so must we be.
It will be interesting to explore of the integrity of the forum and see if there is any overlap between those that normally condemn drug cheats & those that pick them for PTP.0 -
stjohnswell wrote:It will be interesting to explore of the integrity of the forum and see if there is any overlap between those that normally condemn drug cheats & those that pick them for PTP.
I don't see the two things are the same at all. PTP is about picking who you think will win - no more no less. It's not about picking who you want to win or deserves to win.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:stjohnswell wrote:It will be interesting to explore of the integrity of the forum and see if there is any overlap between those that normally condemn drug cheats & those that pick them for PTP.
I don't see the two things are the same at all. PTP is about picking who you think will win - no more no less. It's not about picking who you want to win or deserves to win.
Not its not. It's about picking who you want to win, or identifying a rising star that no-one else has noticed and basking in the approbation of the dunderhead Bertie-ticking masses (ah, the heady days of Schleckette in the Giro!)
Its this focus and ethical dedication that's kept me at the top of the PTP tree for four years.
Eh?
Oh.___________________
Strava is not Zen.0 -
Also, doped or not doped, if they're in the race, they affect the outcome.
It's impossible to remove their addition to the race, and how it pans out.
What if Contador buries himself for a teammate? is that included in the PTP result?
It just can't work.
A pundit is supposed to guess the winner. If they're in it, they can win it.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Also, doped or not doped, if they're in the race, they affect the outcome.
It's impossible to remove their addition to the race, and how it pans out.
What if Contador buries himself for a teammate? is that included in the PTP result?
Good point. Not that he will. In fact, the only person I can remember him burying himself for was Valverde!___________________
Strava is not Zen.0 -
calvjones wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Also, doped or not doped, if they're in the race, they affect the outcome.
It's impossible to remove their addition to the race, and how it pans out.
What if Contador buries himself for a teammate? is that included in the PTP result?
Good point. Not that he will. In fact, the only person I can remember him burying himself for was Valverde!
What if he's in a break, or someone like Cadel wastes energy chases a Contador attack?
Inclusion in the race has infitinte possible affects on the race that can't be quantitfied or removed.0 -
......... ^^^^^^^^ Thiscalvjones wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Also, doped or not doped, if they're in the race, they affect the outcome.
It's impossible to remove their addition to the race, and how it pans out.
What if Contador buries himself for a teammate? is that included in the PTP result?
Good point. !
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Strava is not Zen.0 -
I see where Calv is coming from. He did pick Van den Broecke in the Tour last year, which in a way is more of an achievement than going with the herd and settling for Contador's easy points.
But I agree with the others, though. PTP is about picking winners, and it's not our job to decide who's allowed to race and who should be made persona non grata. If Bertie races the Giro and then gets banned in June, he's already messed up the race for the other riders and affected the final GC. Like Rick says, his actions on the road affect the tactics and the performances of everyone else.
Plus like stjohnswell says, PTP should be politically neutral. If we veto Bert for ethical grounds, why not Vinokourov, Basso, Scarponi and so on...0 -
Can't we have PTD* as a way through this?
Then everyone is happy - PTP hots up and we also have a new area of Punditry™
*Pro Tour DoperMens agitat molem0 -
FJS wrote:Absolutely not. If he's part of the race, he has an impact on how that race develops and other riders' chances. Fully agree with Rick here.
I also don't see why Contador should be a special case. We didn't do anything similar with Valverde when he was clearly about to be banned. What about Mosquera? And there are scores of riders we all have our different ideas of dodginess of.
When I pick a rider that has nothing to do with whether or not I approve of that rider, like them, or think they should be there.
+ 1If you like Flandes, Roubaix or Eroica, you would like GP Canal de Castilla, www.gpcanaldecastilla.com0 -
Political Neutral, pleaseafx237vi wrote:But I agree with the others, though. PTP is about picking winners, and it's not our job to decide who's allowed to race and who should be made persona non grata. If Bertie races the Giro and then gets banned in June, he's already messed up the race for the other riders and affected the final GC. Like Rick says, his actions on the road affect the tactics and the performances of everyone else.
Plus like stjohnswell says, PTP should be politically neutral. .
The race is ridden and the PTP points awarded and we move on to the next choices.
I think afx will have enough to do keeping up with those choices and not being asked to go back over the work again to make amendments. :roll:Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
deejay wrote:
Political Neutral, pleaseafx237vi wrote:But I agree with the others, though. PTP is about picking winners, and it's not our job to decide who's allowed to race and who should be made persona non grata. If Bertie races the Giro and then gets banned in June, he's already messed up the race for the other riders and affected the final GC. Like Rick says, his actions on the road affect the tactics and the performances of everyone else.
Plus like stjohnswell says, PTP should be politically neutral. .
The race is ridden and the PTP points awarded and we move on to the next choices.
I think afx will have enough to do keeping up with those choices and not being asked to go back over the work again to make amendments. :roll:
I accept the tyranny of the majority but I wasn't asking afx to go back and amend anything, just discount the Bertster from upcoming race results. So no need for :roll:___________________
Strava is not Zen.0 -
Can we ban all dopers from PTP and I'll have Cav for all races likely to end in a gallop and Cuddles for all the others 0
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You can throw him out, but I'll still pick him in certain races. :P0
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Seems to be a pretty stupid thing to even argue about. The AC thing happened and it ended in a certain way. Get on with your lives. :roll: :roll:0
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There is I'm afraid always a special case when money is involved, berty's the biggest money spinner since Lance and just look at the way Lance and the marketing men hijacked the Giro a couple of years back.
If you had seen the media scrums in the recent Tour of the Algarve around berty as I did first hand you would understand that there is something a lot bigger going on than just a bike race.
The mistake is to think that Contador is at fault here, it's a dysfunctional system that is at fault and what’s needed is a unified code with clear unambiguous guidelines under the control of a single world wide body. After all the UCI wants cycling to become more worldwide then why not a single transparent dope control organization that is also responsible for test and judgments and hopefully an end to passing the buck to some other so called other body where it interprets matters different to the next one.
The only beneficiaries of this nonsense are the blood (money) sucking legals.0
