Roy Thame Cup - entries returned

ju5t1n

One of my club-mates has not made the start sheet of the Roy Thame Cup on the basis that the event is over subscribed and he is only holds second category licence (the race is an E/1/2). This is despite the fact that he got his entry in early and was one of the first names on the provisional start sheet. This seems grossly unfair and leaves him wondering when and where he can get a ride. There is a morning race for third and fourth cats which he can’t ride either.

Whilst I support the race organiser’s policy of giving priority to juniors, I don’t agree that the rest of the field should be selected on the basis of their racing licence category. Like the juniors, my friend is also new to cycle racing, last year was his first full year of racing and he progressed from fourth to second category with relative ease. I’m sure he would make first category this season – if he is allowed to race.

I have another friend who also races on a second category licence, not through lack of ability but because family commitments mean that he can’t race regularly enough to keep him at his former Elite status. He can still compete, and win against, the current crop of Elites, but he has a young family and has to pick his races carefully. He too enters them well in advance to guarantee (he thought) a ride. Under the policy of the Roy Thame he too would be have been excluded.

I think that this policy wrong and I’m interested in knowing what others think – and whether anyone is aware of British Cycling’s guidelines regarding field selection?

gandhi

I think it's fair - you want the best riders there, and without researching each person, category is the best way to do it.

Looking at the list there are elites and 1sts who are on the reserve list - they seem to have biased it towards the larger teams. http://www.hemelcycling.org.uk/event/ro ... -road-race

From the point of view of the elite, in the area of the Roy Thame and South, there are tonnes of road races that are 234, but hardly any for E12. I'd love to be a 2nd cat!

amaferanga

Selecting a field makes much more sense to me than doing it on a first come first served basis.

How do you know your mate was excluded because he's a 2nd cat - did the organiser specify that as the reason when he returned the entry?

ju5t1n

amaferanga wrote:

Selecting a field makes much more sense to me than doing it on a first come first served basis.

How do you know your mate was excluded because he's a 2nd cat - did the organiser specify that as the reason when he returned the entry?

Yes

amaferanga

Not sure I agree with that if that was the sole reason.

Just read that he turned down Malcolm Elliot as well though....

ju5t1n

Yea, but Malc got his entry in late - my mate's was in 2 months in advance

jibberjim

amaferanga wrote:

Selecting a field makes much more sense to me than doing it on a first come first served basis.

Yes.

amaferanga wrote:

How do you know your mate was excluded because he's a 2nd cat - did the organiser specify that as the reason when he returned the entry?

And I think selection in Feb. should be on category, no-one's going to have any real form to look up so category works. A 2nd cat who is strong enough to contest the Roy Thame should have no problem picking up the points to be 1st cat in other races.

maryka

It's at the organiser's discretion. Sorry, but your friend is SOL. Get more points and move up to 1st cat or get some stand-out results and I guess he'll have a better chance of being selected for oversubscribed, popular, high level races.

From the road general rules at http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/road/a ... nstitution (bold is mine):

20.4 Entries
20.4.1 Entries for all road and circuit races must be made on the standard entry forms, as shown in the Appendices to these Regulations, and sent to the organiser by the closing date. The entry form must be signed and be accompanied by the appropriate entry fee, failing which the entry shall be void. The organiser may reject any entry, for whatever reason, and such rejections shall be returned to the entrants no later than three days after the closing date of the event. The organiser shall ensure that all entry forms are available at the race for inspection by the Chief Commissaire.

Edit: I know the organiser of this race and he's gone to great pains to select the field plus select a list (in order of preference) for reserves. He wants to put on a great race with a competitive field, as he should, so he's selected a field that will hopefully do that. First come first served does not exist once you're on the E/1/2 open RR level.

Bronzie

It's tough selecting a field sometimes - there are always people going to feel hard done by, but it is traditional to select the best riders (by category or points accumulated last season). If it was purely "first come, first served" you'd have a daft flood of entries months before the event.

You can increase your chances with some organisers by being a member of a club that promotes events itself or being in a club that is part of an association (ie Eastern Road Race League).

Lots of early season events are over-subscribed........give it a couple of months when some of the enthusiasm has rubbed off and your mate will be fine to get a ride.

Hibbs

maryka wrote:

First come first served does not exist once you're on the E/1/2 open RR level.

Didn't exist in the Spring Chipper support race either.

(that's just an observation, I'm grateful to organisers for putting in the time and effort to put the race on in the first place, so I'm not going to complain about how they select entries. They put the work in so should be allowed that discretion.)

Tom Butcher

It does exist in some lower cat racing because it's what I've used whenever I've organised races - and plenty of others do too - it's just more unusual the higher you go.

Ultimately there is no right and wrong - there is nothing in the BC rulebook about selecting a field - it's up to the organiser - if they want to admit people in alphabetical order then it's their call - they are the ones putting the work in.

Fwiw if I were to use a system other than first come first served I'd start with clubs/teams that organise open road events.

I do agree that as far as National level races go (not something I've done) then it makes some sense to select on ability rather than fcfs - I'd still prioritise riders from organising clubs/teams though.

ju5t1n

Thanks all for the comments – some interesting points made.

For what it’s worth we are both members of a club that promotes an open road race (and I didn’t make the cut for the support event), so that doesn’t appear to have been a consideration

Chip \'oyler

ju5t1n wrote:

Thanks all for the comments – some interesting points made.

For what it’s worth we are both members of a club that promotes an open road race (and I didn’t make the cut for the support event), so that doesn’t appear to have been a consideration

I'm afraid that's racing. It's the same in time trialling. The fastest riders get the places in over subscribed events.

The organiser has to select on merit - not on who's quickest to get their entry in.

PaulThomo

OK guys. as organiser of the races in question I will make a few comments.
Firstly I have never and will never accept first come first served for any race (road race or time trial) I organise. It's just not the right thing to do when you have a specified closing date at which you are then to make the decisions as to who is in or not. I don't agree that it should be used by any organiser, no matter how easy it seems to make it.

Some background - this year is the first time I have ever has so many people entering both races - the morning Spring chciken race does often fill up and have reserves, but to date I have never needed to return any entries for it. The afternoon Roy Thame Cup race before last year had never even had a full field, let alone reserves. Last year for the first time both races ended up with 91 entrants - although I swapped a couple around at the end (with their agreement). This meant I had 80 riders plus 11 reserves in each. All reserves that signed on got a ride.

This year I had 121 entries for the Roy Thame Cup, and 113 for the Spring Chicken by the closing date. So that's meant I had to decide to throw out 21 riders from the Roy Thame cup alone, and also decide on picking 20 more to simply be reserves. Enevitably there are a number of very good riders and bigger teams entered. I had publically stated I would not allow teams of more than 6 riders - several wanted 8 or more, including Rapha, Corleys, Twenty3C, Raleigh, etc. Most complied with only sending 6 but some did not but I told them all to choose which ones they wanted rejecting.
I have also always had a policy of actively promoting junior racing (and women but none have entered) so will always allow them into the races. This year there are quite a number (I have had as few as 2 before). Once you include those, there is little room left for that many others...
So I decided that of the entries I had yet to select I would see which ones had either no previous race details on or if they did looked at their points total for last year. No details are inexcuseable so if you forgot or couldn't be bothered to put them in and got rejected then tough - you only have yourself to blame because it gives me nothing to go on. Of the rest anyone with 46 or less points didn't get in either. In making my selections I didn't even bother checking if riders were willing to be a reserve or not. To my mind, if you have entered then you take it as you get it - entry implies you want to race and if being a reserve means you get in then reserve is fine by me.

So there you have it - loads of reasons for selecting the field I have got. I am not going to be able to make everyone happy - especially those that didn't get in. No amount of moaning is going to help. The decisions have been made.

Incidentially, In previous years I have had my first entry in the first week of December once the online calendar went live, or the day after the calendar was sent out in the post. This year the calendar went live in the first week of November... yet I didn't get my first entry until mid January - then the flood happened. (I had my biggest single day of well over 40 entries during the entry to this years event). I have yet to get my paper calendar... so no idea when that got sent out.

Paul

Pross

Well put and a perfectly fair way of selecting the riders. It's nice to see races being so well subscribed and a sign of the increased interest in the sport.

ju5t1n

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the response. Good news about the Chas too.

Cheers

fatboy23

seems the problem isn't limited to this event ...apparently it's spread to the National Junior Series...

Next event organised by Bristol Cycling Development Squad brought the closing date forward to earlier than stated date as they had "enough"..

BC's stated NJS regulations appear to have been discarded in this case, resulting in demonstrably stronger riders being sidelined in favour of possibly more favoured local entries...

Devalues/invalidates the National Series imo........is this common? and do BC turn a blind eye to this sort of thing?

P_Tucker

Jeeze. I got binned too, but Paul made his decision on entirely reasonable grounds and explained this clearly. MTFU