Old XTR re-furb

Arkady001

Can I cannibalise a new XTR cassette to rebuild an older 8-spd XTR cassette?
No-one seems to stock old XTR spares any more.

I could upgrade to 9-spd, but that means binning my XTR brake/gear levers and buying new ones and probably buying a new rear mech, oh and a new back wheel to accommodate the damn 9-spd cassette as well...

That'd cost me about £700 to get the same level of componentry, so obviously if there's a workaround, I'd be grateful to hear it.

Also does anyone make XTR-spec 8-sp chains? 9 and 10-spd I can find everywhere, but 8-spd...?
All i can find are IG70 chains...

I'm 80% sure the chain I have on now is an old Shimano 7701 Dura-Ace/XTR 9-spd chain, which runs fine on my 8-spd XTR cassette...but it's only going to last another month or two at the most.
It was put on there 10 years ago and abandoned along with the bike while I went off to do 'other things'.
Now that I'm back, I can't remember what's what and all the componentry has moved on by a light-year or so...

nicklouse

not really. but you could use some 8spd parts.

Look on Petra cycles.

Arkady001

OK I've searched elsewhere and discovered that the spacing between 8 and 9-sp is almost identical - if I were to go to a 10-sp chain it would cause slight problems but it looks like I'll be OK by purchasing a new Dura-Ace/XTR 7701 chain after all...

Likewise, the cog-spacing on the old 8-sp XTR cassette is the same as the newer 9-spd cassettes, but narrower on the 10-spd so I can use the removable (smaller) rings from a 9-spd cassette to re-build my old 8-spd cassette.
The splines on the freehub are identical and haven't changed in the past 16 years or so, so my old XT rear hub will still accommodate newer cassettes.

*phe-ew*

nicklouse

Arkady001 wrote:

OK I've searched elsewhere and discovered that the spacing between 8 and 9-sp is almost identical

no it is not "almost" a 9 speed cassette is the same width as an 8spd.

Arkady001 wrote:

- if I were to go to a 10-sp chain it would cause slight problems but it looks like I'll be OK by purchasing a new Dura-Ace/XTR 7701 chain after all...

causing even more problems.

Arkady001 wrote:

Likewise, the cog-spacing on the old 8-sp XTR cassette is the same as the newer 9-spd cassettes, but narrower on the 10-spd

No 9 is the same spacing as 10 ( 8 is the same as 7-6)

Arkady001 wrote:

so I can use the removable (smaller) rings from a 9-spd cassette to re-build my old 8-spd cassette.

No

Arkady001 wrote:

The splines on the freehub are identical and haven't changed in the past 16 years or so, so my old XT rear hub will still accommodate newer cassettes.

*phe-ew*

yes it is 8/9/10 compatible.

*AJ*

From 8 speed to 9 speed you will need a cassette, chain & shifter. That is all.
I've just done exactly this on my latest build.

Arkady001

nicklouse wrote:

Arkady001 wrote:

OK I've searched elsewhere and discovered that the spacing between 8 and 9-sp is almost identical

no it is not "almost" a 9 speed cassette is the same width as an 8spd.

Arkady001 wrote:

- if I were to go to a 10-sp chain it would cause slight problems but it looks like I'll be OK by purchasing a new Dura-Ace/XTR 7701 chain after all...

causing even more problems.

Arkady001 wrote:

Likewise, the cog-spacing on the old 8-sp XTR cassette is the same as the newer 9-spd cassettes, but narrower on the 10-spd

No 9 is the same spacing as 10 ( 8 is the same as 7-6)

Arkady001 wrote:

so I can use the removable (smaller) rings from a 9-spd cassette to re-build my old 8-spd cassette.

No

Arkady001 wrote:

The splines on the freehub are identical and haven't changed in the past 16 years or so, so my old XT rear hub will still accommodate newer cassettes.

*phe-ew*

yes it is 8/9/10 compatible.

I love the internet.
That goes in the face of what I researched elsewhere.

According to 'other sources', a 9-spd chain will work on an 8-spd cassette, but a 10-spd chain will not.

The thickness of the cogs (not the spacing - my mistake - terminology fail) on an 8-spd cassette is the same as 9, but wider than a 10 which are thinner to accommodate the additional gear...
Therefore I can use individual cogs from a 9-speed to rebuild an 8 but not the cogs from a 10-spd as they're thinner.

If the width of the cogs and the pitch between the teeth is the same on 8 and 9-spd, then there is no problem using a 9-spd chain on an 8-spd cassette.

If you think different, then say why not - not just "it won't work" - the other sites I researched offered reasons why things were and were not compatible, so i'm leaning towards that advice rather than someone who just say's "No"...

Arkady001

*AJ* wrote:

From 8 speed to 9 speed you will need a cassette, chain & shifter. That is all.
I've just done exactly this on my latest build.

Exactly what I'm trying to avoid - I have pre-2000 XTR shifters and have no desire to spend £70 on a new shifter that doesn't even come with a brake lever attached.
I still use V-Brakes, so the old-style combined levers were fine.
If I went to 9-sp, I'd have to buy a new R/H shifter and brake lever...

I could go lower down the range and spec cheaper shifters and levers, but I'm a bit of a tart - I like my XTR...

M-970 XTR cassette is about £130, 9-sp 7701 chain £25 and lever & shifter, well:
M970 Brake& Shifter combo - £150, but I'm not convinced by the Dual-Control Shifting, which seems to have been dropped for the 10-spd version.
Or seperate M970 shifter & brake levers for £70 and £36 respectively.

Add new cables etc and it's the fat end of £300 whichever way you carve it up, compared to £50 for new sprocket-rings + spacers and £25 for a new chain...hmmm...decisions, decisions...

BG2000

I don't think you can interchange parts between 9spd and 8spd top end cassettes that have sprockets riveted onto alloy spiders, as the sprocket spacing is determined by the steps on the spider, and not by plastic spacer rings.

You can only do this with cheaper cassettes where all the sprockets slide directly onto the freehub and you have plastic spacers between. And don't forget you'll still need to use an 8spd smallest sprocket, as a 9spd one will be too narrow, so you can't simply just buy a 9spd cassette and swap the plastic spacers around.

I guess the reason you want XTR (as with Dura-Ace) is the titanium cluster of larger sprockets. So if you can't use a 9spd version, you should probably just forget about XTR. Alternatively, have you considered looking 2nd hand ? You might find someone who was XC racing on 8spd XTR and didn't use the larger sprockets all that much. So you could buy such an item 2nd hand, and replace the 4 smallest sprockets with some new ones stripped from a new 9spd cassette (SRAM PG970s can be found for very little money).

I've certainly split up cheap 9spd Shimano cassettes and used the sprockets with 8spd spacers, and that works fine. You can do the same with SRAM cassettes. Sometimes you just need to file away the rivet head to break the cassette open.

I'm guessing you already know where to look for info on sprocket thickness/spacers etc..if not, it's here:

http://sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.shtml

Regarding chains, forget everything about 10 speed stuff, it's not relevant here.

I would avoid Shimano chains, as I've seen too many break. Stick with SRAM and their PowerLinks (i.e. never use a chainsplitter). And if you're quick, you'll find that CRC are selling off the top model PC890 chains really cheaply, so stock up now while you can still get them:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=22192

Good luck.

02gf74

this is quite confusing.

Cannot say I know all the differnt version of XT and XTR cassette but has seen a few and other makes.

Swapping sprockets over may or may not be possible.

The XTR has paired sprockets on alloy carrier, one flta sprocket and the smallest 2 are shaped. Only the flat one is changeable as it has no spacing requirement.

Likewsie with XT - the big sprockets are all mounted on one alloy carrier then theothers are the same as the XTR.

I am pretty sure I have seen a Shimano cassette - proably LX that is 8 or 9 flat sproclets with spacers in between - for sure I recentluy fitted a SRAM one that is made like that. The are held together by a rivet = SRAM or on the Shimano, a small diameter hollow botl - this can be undone.

In summary, there is only one sprocket that can be swapped between Shimano 8 and 9 speed cassettes, all the others have some extra thing that determines the spacing between sprockets - 8 and 9 are different spacing although the overall width of the cassette is the same.

Arkady001

BG2000 wrote:

...I guess the reason you want XTR (as with Dura-Ace) is the titanium cluster of larger sprockets. So if you can't use a 9spd version, you should probably just forget about XTR. Alternatively, have you considered looking 2nd hand ? You might find someone who was XC racing on 8spd XTR and didn't use the larger sprockets all that much. So you could buy such an item 2nd hand, and replace the 4 smallest sprockets with some new ones stripped from a new 9spd cassette (SRAM PG970s can be found for very little money).

I've certainly split up cheap 9spd Shimano cassettes and used the sprockets with 8spd spacers, and that works fine. You can do the same with SRAM cassettes. Sometimes you just need to file away the rivet head to break the cassette open.

Good luck.

I wanted XTR because I already have XTR - just 8-spd...lol
My larger sprockets are fine - the three outer ones not rivetted to the spider are the ones I'm looking to replace - eventually - at the moment they're also fine - that cassette will probably last the remainder of this year; I'm just looking ahead to see what's possible.
I generally grind through the 12 and 15-tooth sprockets first...

When I was racing many moons ago I built my own cassettes from a mix of road sprockets (mostly shim.105 and other bits), so I'm not a complete dullard (he says confidently...lol).

Speaking to the local Shimano rep here in Germany, it may also be possible to swap out the geared wheel and pawl inside the shifter unit itself so that it becomes a 9-spd shifter. The little window indicator will no longer line up, but who cares about that?
I explained it was a pre-1998 model, but he seemed confident and will be getting back to me in a week or so.

Arkady001

02GF74 wrote:

this is quite confusing.

Cannot say I know all the differnt version of XT and XTR cassette but has seen a few and other makes.

Swapping sprockets over may or may not be possible.

The XTR has paired sprockets on alloy carrier, one flta sprocket and the smallest 2 are shaped. Only the flat one is changeable as it has no spacing requirement.

Likewsie with XT - the big sprockets are all mounted on one alloy carrier then theothers are the same as the XTR.

I am pretty sure I have seen a Shimano cassette - proably LX that is 8 or 9 flat sproclets with spacers in between - for sure I recentluy fitted a SRAM one that is made like that. The are held together by a rivet = SRAM or on the Shimano, a small diameter hollow botl - this can be undone.

In summary, there is only one sprocket that can be swapped between Shimano 8 and 9 speed cassettes, all the others have some extra thing that determines the spacing between sprockets - 8 and 9 are different spacing although the overall width of the cassette is the same.

I'll use my existing spacers to ensure the derailleur 'throw' stays the same, I'll use new sprockets from a 9-spd block to replace my ones as they wear out - the spacing on the smallest sprockets is the same on 9-spd as it is on 8-spd (apparently - i'll find out the hard way and if I'm wrong you can all have a laugh at my expense...lol).
Now that I know the thickness of the sprocket is the same and that the shifting 'ramps/cut-outs' will be correctly aligned it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

pastey_boy

i have an awesome condition 11t-30t xtr cs950 cassette i would be happy to swap for anything you have lying around. less than 100 miles on it

njee20

What a faff.

I'd sooner have 10 speed SLX than 8 speed XTR - the shifters are far nicer than they ever used to be!

rainerhq

Arkady001 wrote:

Also does anyone make XTR-spec 8-sp chains? 9 and 10-spd I can find everywhere, but 8-spd...?
All i can find are IG70 chains...

http://www.actionsports.de/gb/Component ... :9666.html

RayW

If you think different, then say why not - not just "it won't work" - the other sites I researched offered reasons why things were and were not compatible, so i'm leaning towards that advice rather than someone who just say's "No"...

Nick can be abrupt with his replies but you can trust what he says. He knows what he is talking about as many people on here would tell you.

BG2000

Arkady001 wrote:

the spacing on the smallest sprockets is the same on 9-spd as it is on 8-spd (apparently - i'll find out the hard way and if I'm wrong you can all have a laugh at my expense...lol).
Now that I know the thickness of the sprocket is the same and that the shifting 'ramps/cut-outs' will be correctly aligned it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

You mean sprocket *thickness* not spacing. Yes, they're the same thickness (give or take 0.02mm) all except the outer sprocket as the spacing is built in - have a read of my last reply as I've explained this already, sorry if it's a big long.

Buying outer 8spd sprockets in 12T or 13T on their own will be tricky. But you can still buy 8spd cassettes, so you'll be able to get the smallest that way....

but hang on, why not just buy an SRAM PG850 and just use the spockets you want with your existing XTR cluster. I bought a PG850 in December for one of my older bikes, and it looks lovely, as good as XT or Ultegra.

So your titanium sprocket cluster will still be visible, and you'll just have some shinier looking sprockets further down. It'll look nice.

I wouldn't risk hacking away at the shifters, not when there are still nice 8spd cassttes on the market...

Arkady001

BG2000 wrote:

but hang on, why not just buy an SRAM PG850 and just use the spockets you want with your existing XTR cluster. I bought a PG850 in December for one of my older bikes, and it looks lovely, as good as XT or Ultegra.

So your titanium sprocket cluster will still be visible, and you'll just have some shinier looking sprockets further down. It'll look nice.

I wouldn't risk hacking away at the shifters, not when there are still nice 8spd cassttes on the market...

I though I'd explained that that was what I was going to do - but with XTR 9-sp components: you can still buy the separate rings for them - lol...sorry if it all got a bit opaque...

I'm not convinced about the shifter internals-swap either, but 'Shimano-Guy' seemed to think it was a a viable alternative.

Arkady001

RayW wrote:

Nick can be abrupt with his replies but you can trust what he says. He knows what he is talking about as many people on here would tell you.

I'm the same - ask anyone on some of the more popular photography boards...

I'd just prefer an explanation - I'm not 18 but 48 and I've been building bikes and rebuilding cars since I was a kid - get technical - it's part of the fun for me...

There's a wealth of information out in internet-land - unfortunately a lot of it's just re-hashed 'other-people's-opinions' - like Chinese Whispers, it's sometimes hard to get to the truth of it.
Just because someone who's popular on a forum says it's true doesn't always make it so.
If I've read something elsewhere that's wrong - fine: tell me so - but qualify your statements please.

nicklouse

RayW wrote:

Nick can be abrupt with his replies but you can trust what he says. He knows what he is talking about as many people on here would tell you.

? not me.

Arkady001

rainerhq wrote:

Arkady001 wrote:

Also does anyone make XTR-spec 8-sp chains? 9 and 10-spd I can find everywhere, but 8-spd...?
All i can find are IG70 chains...

http://www.actionsports.de/gb/Component ... :9666.html

Excellent - and right here in Germany as well - many thanks...

joshtp

just get a cheaper, deore for E.G level cassette... CRC have 8 speed ones...

nicklouse

and if people want to check up on the spacing and widths here you go.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.shtml

geoff93

Nick is absolutely correct, don't need to repeat what he said, but his answer is correct.

Arkady001

Geoff93 wrote:

Nick is absolutely correct, don't need to repeat what he said, but his answer is correct.

Which contradicts in part information I have gleaned elsewhere, including from links that Nick has in his own signature block...

Care to elaborate further? Sorry to reiterate, but without a proper explanation as to 'why', I'm not about to take it on faith...

If the width of a new cassette sprocket is the same as on an older model, the pitch of the teeth is the same and the spacing is the same, why would it not work, assuming the shift ramps and detents on the new sprocket's teeth appeared in the same place relative to the old one?

Arkady001

nicklouse wrote:

and if people want to check up on the spacing and widths here you go.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.shtml

Ooops missed this one...

Cheers Nick - that was the bit I was missing from Sheldon's page earlier.

If I use my old spacers then the only sprocket I may have a problem with is the outer 11-tooth as that has a built-in spacer. The 0.02mm difference in sprocket thickness shouldn't cause any real issues...

Geoff93: please disregard my previous post.

Thanks to everyone for their patience and time...

nicklouse

and maybe the the next one in.

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cassettes-8- ... ept73_pg1/

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/12t-shimano- ... prod15843/

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cassettes-sp ... pt368_pg1/

http://www.petracycles.co.uk/cassettes- ... 4f0cb7cb0b

http://www.petracycles.co.uk/index.php? ... ter_id=134

just keep the speeds the same and you can "really" use any shimano cog from any shimano cassette.

But i would be dropping a mail to the German mail oder shops and also poping into the LBS and just ask them what do they have you may find an XT 8 speed or even an XTR one.

or just fit cannibalise a lower level 8Spd.

Arkady001

nicklouse wrote:

or just fit cannibalise a lower level 8Spd.

Looking at the prices of XTR cassettes now, that's probably the wisest choice...lol

I think I paid £80 for the one that's currently fitted...

Anyway - 16€ for an 8-sp XTR chain wasn't bad, so I ordered nine (all they had left), which should keep me going for a bit...

nicklouse

why. Sram/KMC are better. also the XTR 8 speed is now about as good/quality as the current SLX.

Arkady001

nicklouse wrote:

why. Sram/KMC are better. also the XTR 8 speed is now about as good/quality as the current SLX.

Remaindered stock, plus I didn't pay the 16€ quoted on the website as I bought all of them, so cheaper than the newer chains which are either 12.90€ for really cheap ones or 24.90€ for slightly better ones and they're a nice, shiny silver rather than dull steel-grey...

I know, but it makes me happy...

Since practically everything else on the bike is 15 years old (apart from the bar-plugs which I managed to break both of on Thursday, falling down the mountainside), I may as well keep with tradition...