Other cheating v Doping

Anonymous

Where do you all stand on other cheating (eg I saw a rider hanging onto a motorbike going up a 20% in a GT)?

Less evil than doping because it's less hidden?
Outraged at the laziness?
Admiration at the laziness?

I have a bit of all of the above....

Pokerface

You mean like drafting off a motorbike in a Grand Tour TT?

rocksteadyeddie

This sort of thing went on a lot more years ago especially in the Grand Tours. Ordinarily it would be someone trying depserately to hang onto the bunch, or avoid getting dropped. It wasn't something practiced by those in contention as a rule. Commissars take a much harder line nowadays. You have to fall off to get a tow off the doctors car!

Is it cheating? Yes. Did it affect the outcome? Doubtful.

Timcornell

Is it cheating? Yes. Did it affect the outcome? Doubtful.

Try telling Robert Millar that

jerry3571

I did see Jacky Durand in the Giro a few years ago going up a climb holding on to a car so if he did it then anyone can.
i think it's one of those grey areas; if you do it too much then advantage can be made from it. I guess it's self Policing as if a certain rider does it too much then wins the next days stage then a few noses would be out of joint and complaints would be made by the other teams.

-Jerry

Cumulonimbus

People do get caught for this and i think there is usually a fine and a deduction of points. Last year saw a lot of people lose points in the Giro and i think this was why - im pretty sure all of the people with a -5 in this stage were in the autobus.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/93rd-g ... 20/results

iainf72

Cumulonimbus wrote:

People do get caught for this and i think there is usually a fine and a deduction of points. Last year saw a lot of people lose points in the Giro and i think this was why - im pretty sure all of the people with a -5 in this stage were in the autobus.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/93rd-g ... 20/results

Someone from Sky got chucked out the Giro for it, didn't they?

Cumulonimbus

iainf72 wrote:

Cumulonimbus wrote:

People do get caught for this and i think there is usually a fine and a deduction of points. Last year saw a lot of people lose points in the Giro and i think this was why - im pretty sure all of the people with a -5 in this stage were in the autobus.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/93rd-g ... 20/results

Someone from Sky got chucked out the Giro for it, didn't they?

Froome did i think but he had hurt his knee and was just getting a 'lift' to where the team car had stopped (at least that was his story)

EDIT: here is the link, it was a soigneur at the top.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... talia.html

http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290, ... 40,00.html

edhornby

even up to the 70s and 80s the 'home' riders on the GTs would get a push from the crowd... that's a tough one to solve, cos you can't punish a rider for being of the same nationality as the fans

'I didn't ask for the push'
'I didn't ask for the beef to have steriods (and plasticisers) in it'

Cumulonimbus

edhornby wrote:

even up to the 70s and 80s the 'home' riders on the GTs would get a push from the crowd... that's a tough one to solve, cos you can't punish a rider for being of the same nationality as the fans

'I didn't ask for the push'
'I didn't ask for the beef to have steriods (and plasticisers) in it'

Seem to remember someone in the mid-00s (Evans) complaining that the Basque fans were pushing the Euskaltel riders up the climbs. Something about dropping a guy only to have him come whizzing past you 10 seconds later?

csp

I think in other sports, there are far more consequential cases of cheating. For instance, in football, hitting the ball with your hand and thus avoiding a goal. Even if the opponents get a penalty, it's no guarantee for scoring, and could possibly lose the match becase of it. Compared to this, hanging on to a car for a few seconds, when you're already half an hour behind the leader seems trivial.

Cumulonimbus

csp wrote:

I think in other sports, there are far more consequential cases of cheating. For instance, in football, hitting the ball with your hand and thus avoiding a goal. Even if the opponents get a penalty, it's no guarantee for scoring, and could possibly lose the match becase of it. Compared to this, hanging on to a car for a few seconds, when you're already half an hour behind the leader seems trivial.

On that stage, true. But if hanging onto a car enables a sprinter to finish with the autobus and avoid getting eliminated then it means they can go onto challenge on subsequent flatter stages. Similarly, lead-out men and workers on the flat stages can go on to help their sprinter on future stages. Also, just being able to take it easier could help as well, i think it is one of the reasons why they get fined points - hits the sprinters in their attempt to get the green jersey.

jerry3571

The French riders who say they ride clean have a day or so at the rear of the Peleton before having a good crack on a single stage so any benefit form cars can be seen as saving energy; cyclists are neurotic about saving energy.
I think Robert Miller had a saying about- When you don't need to stand then sit and if there is no need to sit then lie down.
something like that.

-Jerry

FJS

It can have race-changing effects - doesn't rumour has it for instance that Jan Raas was pushed up the Cauberg by teammates every lap, in the Valkenburg Worlds he won.

Interesting - the fine or deduction of points/minutes, with expulsion in very rare cases, used to be the standard approach to doping. Somewhere it diverted

rick_chasey

jerry3571 wrote:

The French riders who say they ride clean have a day or so at the rear of the peloton before having a good crack on a single stage so any benefit form cars can be seen as saving energy; cyclists are neurotic about saving energy.
I think Robert Miller had a saying about- When you don't need to stand then sit and if there is no need to sit then lie down.
something like that.

-Jerry

Still the same.

For the leopard team opening, Canc after 5 mins asked journos if he could interview sitting down.

jerry3571

To be honest, Cav has missed a few sprints lately just by Knats whisker so you can uderstand a bike rider's paranoia on saving energy.

-Jerry

rick_chasey

jerry3571 wrote:

To be honest, Cav has missed a few sprints lately just by Knats whisker so you can uderstand a bike rider's paranoia on saving energy.

-Jerry

I'd put those sprints down to poor positioning, not lost energy.

jerry3571

It was poor postioning but fresher legs may have got him those few inches and that's what goes through a bike rider's heard when they lose. Top riders never ride i the wind or get bottles etc so anything that blunts the energy even slightly is a factor between winning or losing. we had 7 years of LA being a total control freak and this is what it's all down too.
When I had better form (even though I was always rubbish) I would ware smooth socks over my shoes as it was more aerodynamic even though it probably made no real difference. It was mainly in the head and maybe a tiny bit in the legs too.

-Jerry

FJS

jerry3571 wrote:

When I had better form (even though I was always rubbish) I would ware smooth socks over my shoes as it was more aerodynamic even though it probably made no real difference. It was mainly in the head and maybe a tiny bit in the legs too.

Funny comparison; did you notice Bos, as a real trackie, wore aero-oversocks when beating Cavendish on Tuesday? Made the difference? Might have been a bit warm in the desert though....

rick_chasey

jerry3571 wrote:

It was poor postioning but fresher legs may have got him those few inches and that's what goes through a bike rider's heard when they lose. Top riders never ride i the wind or get bottles etc so anything that blunts the energy even slightly is a factor between winning or losing. we had 7 years of LA being a total control freak and this is what it's all down too.
When I had better form (even though I was always rubbish) I would ware smooth socks over my shoes as it was more aerodynamic even though it probably made no real difference. It was mainly in the head and maybe a tiny bit in the legs too.

-Jerry

Pfft.

I could be 10 times better than Cav but if i'm starting a sprint in 12th place I'm not going to win.

All that equipment rubbish is all just PR faff for bike companies who worked out we love that sh!t, especially if the pros do it.

With regard to energy saving in a road race, I'd say 80-95% is positioning, the rest your psotion on your bike, with some tiny number you kit.

TMR

Rick Chasey wrote:

Pfft.

I could be 10 times better than Cav but if i'm starting a sprint in 12th place I'm not going to win.

Hmmm...I disagree.

Cav, at his best, is 10km/ph faster than anyone else in the peloton. If you're 10x better than Cav, then you'd be 100km/ph faster than anyone in the peloton. I'm fairly confident you'd win a sprint in those circumstances, even if you started from the back :P

jerry3571

Are you Cavs Mum?
Is it your fault that he gives snotty interviews??
Blame the parents that what I say!!

-Jerry

forward_loop

wiki the 1904 tour de france - the level of cheating was very funny - trains/cars/ masked attackers.......nails on the road,barricades, rocks thrown....

the first four in the GC were later disqualified