myth behind the marketing or pure brand snobbery

tim_wand

I m starting this topic mainly as an apology to SKYGOD 49 for sabotaging his post about what was better a PX Nanolight or Ribble Stealth. (Sorry)

Being an ardent PX owner (kaffenback and Pro Carbon sl) but having always lusted after an Italian Superbike (De rosa / Pinarello / Wilier ) it made me wonder just how much I was buying into marketing/ heritage myth in these days of generic carbon frames knocked out in China or Tapei.

INSEINE made an interesting point that for reasons of production cost most frames are now made in the afore mentioned far east, its the design that matters and most/ all of that is still in house in Milan or elsewhere thats where the heritage can be claimed.

Does this hold out. Is it right for a Hi end Italian manufacturer to trade on Italian Heritage when the frame is produced in China in the same factory as Px or Ribble frames, Just because the original design was penned in Italy.

I admit to being a brand snob in other areas of my life. I bought an Audi Estate over a Skoda when the skoda was all round a better car ( I can defend this on depreciation and resale) factors I dont consider when buying a bike.

I would begrudge however buying an " Italian superbike" to find it was layed up in the same factory as a Ribble or Px' only on the grounds that I would feel an idiot paying a premium on the smart buy of Px or Ribble.

Is there anyone out there with enough knowledge/ guts to actually admit which brands are marketing homogenised/ generic carbon frames as those used by brands percieved to have less qudos..

Maybe then I can stop lusting after the mythical Italian superbike and feel happy that I probably already own it.

balthazar

I think you're torturing yourself with these self-referential concerns. Why not buy the bike that fits you, and which you like the look of, and trust to be as durable as you expect... and thereafter — ignore it and concentrate on enjoying all the rides you have with it. Do you really care who made it or where? It strikes me as a terribly impoverished concern, when there are potentially great days and great bike rides ahead. Forgetaboutit! Ride!

Berk Bonebonce

There have been plenty of threads on these matters. Many a North American or European bike company buy frames constructed in Taiwan or China and re-brand them as their own. I mean, what's new? With the greatest respect, you seem to be asking other people to confirm what you know yourself. A carbon fibre frame is a carbon fibre frame. And a HM carbon fibre frame is a HM carbon fibre frame.

tim_wand

Too right in spirit Balthazar, but difficult in practice.

Wouldnt you find it hard to swallow if you spent thousands on a stereo system to find you could get the same sound quality from one that cost a tenth of that.

With most products it does nt happen that way you get what you pay for (and sure it should be about the experince and the joy you get from listening to the music).

With bikes however its different we seem to buy in blindly and I was looking for some more clarity.

The answer I suppose is to back to back test ride and trust your judgement.

Ribbles and PX's are mail order mainly.

Not too many LBS are keen on letting you take out the Hi end Italian stuff for a proper shake down and neither are my few clubmates who own them (neither would they ever make any subjective negative comments on their " over priced ? " steeds.)

I accept if I had the funds I would buy into it all just as blindly. I just wanted some evidence that there was no need to.

The most enjoyable bike ride I ever had was London to Brighton on a Pashley Butchers bike but in my dreams I still aspire to do a Grande Fondo on an Italian Superbike.

Id probably be disappointed on both counts (Never meet your heros)

cougie

I've seen people posting b*llox about riding a bike with 'soul'.

I've been riding 3 decades now and have no idea what they're on about. I love my bikes, but their nationality means nothing to me. Dont obsess on the bike - just get out and ride them. Dont know about you - but when I think back on my rides - its all about how I felt and what I saw. I cant really remember what bike I did what ride on.

Marketing is a huge thing in cycling - as it is in most other aspects of life I suppose.

Do the Grande Fondo - it will be a blast. Dont worry about the bike - just make sure your gear ratios are good !

navrig

I suggest that this thread is closed and allowed to sink to the bottom for eternity. If this becomes a sensible discussion and our wives are to become aware of it I suggest that we will all be riding Carreras from Halfords.



PS - The Ribble Gran Fondo has a little Italian Badge and written underneath is "Crafted in Italy". I reckon they charge an extra £76 for that.

paul64

I love my summer bike, the cachet of the Italian name, the styling, shiny paint and feelgood factor which all go with blue skies, sunshine and that fair weather contentment. The frame was £1200 (some people paid £800 when the last few of that year's colours were sold off at the end of the year)



I love my winter bike equally, the low-rent English name, the styling, shiny paint and feelgood factor which counters grey days and evenings, cold rain and bad weather contentment of forcing yourself out there. The frame was £500.



The Viner is said to be put together in Italy and there does seem to be more involved but would I worry if I took the Ribble to the Gran Fondo? Not at all. I put some expensive Dura Ace CL24 1380g wheels on it for comfort more than anything and it's a joy to ride. Yes I know, I should put the Eastons on it for the winter and save the Dura Ace for the summer but the Eastons are absolute pigs to change tyres when you puncture and I don't want that in the miserable cold and wet.

I would pick whatever you want to ride.

On the car logic by the way, a mate once said to me buy a cheap car and what's the most you can lose or spend to replace it? We ran some numbers and purchase price vs depreciation + tyres + insurance + servicing et al undid my logic of car choice and I have chosen more humbly ever since.

neeb

My guess is that you're always going to be paying some level of premium for a prestigious name (in the case of the famous Italian companies), or a prestigious model (e.g. Trek Madone, Spesh Tarmac), the question is whether you personally consider that money well spent. If image is important to you then spend the money, but don't try to justify it by pretending it's something else. There's nothing necessarily wrong with paying for a well-marketed image if that appeals to you and makes you happy, after all the company has spent a lot of money creating that image and you acquire some of that when you buy the bike. The other way to think of it is as a guarantee of a certain minimum quality - a top model from a well known company is unlikely to be bad, but if you are going for a generic CF frame or a cheaper model you need to do more research to make sure what you are getting is really good quality.

Of course it helps if exactly the same frame is being sold as a premium model at twice the price by a well-known Italian brand, e.g. Ribble Stealth vs. De Rosa R838, Ribble Scuro RS vs. Guerociotti Team etc...

tim_wand

Paul 64. Both fantastic bikes, I love the fact that the DA wheels are on the Ribble and Eastons are on the Viner. Can you actually discern any difference in the ride charachteristics of the two frames or does the DA wheelset even it out.

I think Navrig's post is also right, we should kill this thread off before our wives/ partners buy into the idea that as someone once said ( or was it marketed ) " its not about the bike "

When I was a single man a club mate used to garage his pinarello prince with me ( yer for sure I took it out now and then ) and ride to my house on a Sunday morning pre club run on his Ribble to deceive the wife ( knowlegable woman he used to leave all his CW's in the toilet ) sure enough one Sunday they met at a Cafe stop at a garden centre.
Very funny. ( He told her the bike was at mine because my garage was more secure than his shed and the insurance insisted on it / clever guy)

The next time his Wife read CW his Pinarello was in the classifieds in the back.

MaxwellBygraves

Outdated, but still relevant - http://allanti.com/articles/where-was-m ... -pg328.htm

Chip \'oyler

There are Italian brands that do build their frames in Italy. OK these will be at higher price points but there are still artisan builders in Italy.

Some of the high end carbon Colnago's are built in Italy, Viner's definately are. So are Tommasini, Legend, Formigli etc

You just have to look past the usual bike brands, dig a little deeper and you'll find 'real' Italian frames. Problem is these handbuilt Italian frames don't come cheap - so it depends what your budget is.

Brands want to hit certain price points and their manufacturing choice will reflect this.

navrig

Another point to consider.

The Swiss used to make many more quality cameras than they do today. How many of us buy Swiss made cameras?

If we could afford one made in Switzerland how many would actually by-pass the Nikon/Canon etc.

Not totally applicable to bikes but not too far away.

mattsy666

Unless you buy something only to replace a damaged or worn out article or to fulfill a new requirement then you are immediately 'buying' into the marketing system ... Even swapping an egg for a loaf of bread with the farmer next door is buying into something ...

Just buy what you can barely afford and you should be happy enough ... It's human nature to be attracted to shiny things ... And coal would make a terrible mess of the missus' new dress ...

paul64

tim wand wrote:

Paul 64. Both fantastic bikes, I love the fact that the DA wheels are on the Ribble and Eastons are on the Viner. Can you actually discern any difference in the ride charachteristics of the two frames or does the DA wheelset even it out.

Hi Tim, I won't really know until later this year since the Viner is doing occasional turbo/rollers work until April so it doesn't get a spec of grit on it.

I built the Ribble this Winter and my first thoughts were that it was not quite as stiff as the Viner but perfectly good enough (and I am 15st/95kg) so when I do stamp on the pedals I am conscious of frame stiffness. Then when I added the 7850 wheels I found them highly responsive, light (no surprise there) when climbing and really comfortable. I don't believe they are quite as stiff as the Eastons but it could be placebo. I'm looking forward to riding the Viner again in the Spring after 20 to 50 miles 3 times per week on average between Christmas and April. I know what will happen, I curiosity will get the better of me and I will take the Eastons off and try the 7850s.

I do feel spoilt with both bikes whereas my riding buddies usually have 2 or more MTBs including FS, SS and HT bikes easily costing the price of our road bikes whereas I am happy to stick with the Whyte 901 I bought last year. Boy, does that bike get some stick, I couldn't believe what MTBs are put through on even normal trail riding.

sy1975

We buy products because they make us happy, whether that is marketing hype or not is nether here nor there. If expensive products (sports care, rolex watch, superbike ect) don't excite you thats fine, we are all different.

My recent purchase (Wilier Petacchi) was made purely because I love the look of the bike and the its a step up to a carbon frame, it will be a pleasure taking it out, nothing more or less, beacuse thats how it makes me feel I really am not fussed where it wsa made

on-yer-bike

Thats a lot of spacers you got there on them two bikes, Paul64. Especially the Viner.

on-yer-bike

Chip \'oyler wrote:

There are Italian brands that do build their frames in Italy. OK these will be at higher price points but there are still artisan builders in Italy.
.

Some of the most expensive frames are made in China eg Cervelo.

Chip \'oyler

on-yer-bike wrote:

Chip \'oyler wrote:

There are Italian brands that do build their frames in Italy. OK these will be at higher price points but there are still artisan builders in Italy.
.

Some of the most expensive frames are made in China eg Cervelo.

:?:

kingrollo

Ive got a different take.

If you want the pinarello ...buy one - we are only on this earth for 70 years enjoy it.

A few years back - a brought a pinarello - when all and sundry told me - that ribble\giant\peugeot were doing the same bike for £600 - paid £1100 for the pinarello - never regretted it - 8 years later sold it for £550.

My most recent bike - was probably comparable to a boardman\planet x\ribble - but why spend £1000 on something that is second best (not that its a inferior product - it just not what you really want) I spent £1400 on something comparable - but for me it had that wow factor - that means I will ride it more - and it will be longer before I want a new one.

clx1

I have absolutely nothing against any Brand so will restrict my comments to the Brands mentioned by the O.P.
If you look at a Planet X bike and say a Pinarello you will see a significant difference (in favour of the Pinarello) irrespective of where the Pinarello was made!
Great brands have to provide more than a myth or they wouldn't be great brands, people aren't that gullible.
As I said go to a high end bike shop and look closely at the brands mentioned, frame quality, particularly carbon and the paint job will be better than the budget brands.
Then again they should do as they cost a lot more.
Like everything else in life, you pay your money...................

rolf_f

Bit like Paul64 here. I have a handmade, lugged framed Look with Centaur Record mix and a Ribble Gran Fondo with Centaur. The Ribble is about a pound heavier which really isn't much to worry about. Both are terrific bikes. Somehow, riding the Look does always feel special though - whether it is down to design or just in my mind, I don't know but its rarity and the knowledge of how it was built make a big difference to me (I certainly wouldn't buy a very expensive frame that was mass produced in Taiwan).

That's my take on it - I don't pretend the expensive bike makes me any faster. I appreciate both for what they are and the Ribble is clearly outstanding value and both were hand assembled in the UK to my specs.

Some people here clearly don't understand the difference and that is their perogative though they often seem quite arsey about those who do feel the difference but never mind.

There are options for European hand made frames out there - Viner, Look, Time, Colnago but not (afaik) Pinarello, Wilier etc. I'm sure others will suggest more options.

tim_wand

Wow I was hoping this thread would die! so as Navrig suggested we didnt supply our other halfs with a logical argument to not lust after the kit we desire.

I ve changed my mind slightly now I m after a Viner not a Pinarello or Wilier.

The reason. Its a left field choice and I can be sure its actually been made in Italy (or maybe a columbus xcr Tomassini.)

Like previous poster said we've only 3 score years and 10 on this Earth and I dont want to look back and regret never having been up the Stelvio or some other Italian Col on the bike of my dreams.

Still going to do the next London Brighton on a Brompton though ( Ditchling Beacon on a 5 speed now thats a memory)

1stGenRex

balthazar wrote:

I think you're torturing yourself with these self-referential concerns. Why not buy the bike that fits you, and which you like the look of, and trust to be as durable as you expect... and thereafter — ignore it and concentrate on enjoying all the rides you have with it. Do you really care who made it or where? It strikes me as a terribly impoverished concern, when there are potentially great days and great bike rides ahead. Forgetaboutit! Ride!

/thread

a_n_t

on-yer-bike wrote:

Thats a lot of spacers you got there on them two bikes, Paul64. Especially the Viner.

A scary amount on the viner!

Chip \'oyler

tim wand wrote:

I ve changed my mind slightly now I m after a Viner not a Pinarello or Wilier.

The reason. Its a left field choice and I can be sure its actually been made in Italy (or maybe a columbus xcr Tomassini.)

Like previous poster said we've only 3 score years and 10 on this Earth and I dont want to look back and regret never having been up the Stelvio or some other Italian Col on the bike of my dreams.

Still going to do the next London Brighton on a Brompton though ( Ditchling Beacon on a 5 speed now thats a memory)

Good choice! Which model of Viner you thinking of getting?

paul64

a_n_t wrote:

on-yer-bike wrote:

Thats a lot of spacers you got there on them two bikes, Paul64. Especially the Viner.

A scary amount on the viner!

Gents, I know what you mean. I bought the Viner from Epic in summer 2009 and had a complete bike fit and so thought nothing more of it. I wasn't clued up on headset spacer height at the time. The bike has ridden really well and if I had encountered a problem I would have not entertained any suggestions of invalid warranty having relied on experts etc. When I took it into my LBS late last year to check something over that's the first thing they said, as you both have.

The Ribble has a longer head tube and I have the maximum (30mm) to stay within warranty and no more. I was able to consider their and other frame options to make sure this bike doesn't have too much stack height.

For Tim or others unfmailiar with some of these nice exotic (or humble) carbon bikes you do have to do your homework. Some frames have a rider weight limit and many have a headset spacer limit so you should enquire about both before buying. Knowing what I know now I suspect I would choose the next size up of Viner if starting again, purely for the reason others can see here. It is possible that my return to cycling for a year or two now will enable me to take a cm off thus removing a spacer and I it's something I will be looking into this year.