So how should Contadors palmares be viewed now ?

2

Comments

  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Not always so i was always prepared to give him TBOTD given that the evidence was patchy at best at best but for me his positive is indicative of probable sloppy blood doping which would lead me to think he had been at it for some time.

    Perhaps you need to revisit how you process evidence?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • pedro118118
    pedro118118 Posts: 1,102
    I'm not sure that ITT performances are a red-flag for dopers.

    ITT's withn the context of a GT are very different - more about recovery and all-round capacity for suffering than pure TT technique. The likes of Canc, Martin, Rogers, Millar, Pinotti etc do a lot of domestique work in GTs and therefore are not in peak shape for the ITTs, especially late in the race.

    From what I know (which is by no means encyclopedic) Bertie has always been useful against the clock, since being a junior. Now when Pantani starts putting in podium performances in ITTs, then of course, alarm bells ring.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    How should his palmares be viewed?

    With an FF jizz stain on it? No, that's not fair.

    With a massive skidmark from yours truly over the '10 Tour.

    Officially, it'll be the same as it was before he started the '10 Tour, and that's how it probably should be.

    Schleck will officially be the winner, but he probably will want to play that down (like denying he has won it).
    _
  • Ron Stuart
    Ron Stuart Posts: 1,242
    My and David Harman's alarm bells go off when we see a rider who suddenly transforms their performances into a whole new level well above anything they had previously achieved. Some examples of which have been noted already on this post.
    Contador if anything hadn't shown the kind of form he had during the 2009 TDF, if he had the same form he wouldn't have such a hard time with Schleck who was showing his best form yet :shock:
  • dulldave
    dulldave Posts: 949
    Moray Gub wrote:
    but for me his positive is indicative of probable sloppy blood doping which would lead me to think he had been at it for some time.

    Here's a sentence I don't think I've ever typed. I agree with Moray Gub.

    That felt weird :D
    Scottish and British...and a bit French
  • Tom Butcher
    Tom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    He's discredited - not just by the positive test but by his refusal to own up and further by the possibility he will only get a one year ban. I think if you do your time and appear to have recognised your offence and to have changed (I say appear as it's very hard to know for sure) then people will generally welcome you back - some wont but most will.

    I mean FFS even DiLuca has the sense to realise there comes a time to own up and pretend you've reformed. I think Contador is going to be the rider cycling fans love to hate if he comes back next Autumn still saying he did nothing wrong.
    it's a hard life if you don't weaken.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    iainf72 wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Not always so i was always prepared to give him TBOTD given that the evidence was patchy at best at best but for me his positive is indicative of probable sloppy blood doping which would lead me to think he had been at it for some time.

    Perhaps you need to revisit how you process evidence?

    Not so given the evidence up until now has been as i say patchy at best, i am never going to down the if you visit st moritz you are guilty of doping route that others in here go down if thats what you mean. I prefer something a bit more concrete.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Not so given the evidence up until now has been as i say patchy at best, i am never going to down the if you visit st moritz you are guilty of doping route that others in here go down if thats what you mean. I prefer something a bit more concrete.

    Sure, but when there is a bunch of stuff you still seem prepared to dimiss it. Do you accept that a failed doping test is not the only evidence?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Ron Stuart
    Ron Stuart Posts: 1,242
    This post for the large part just reeks of Innuendo and frankly factitious drivel.

    Not reading post anymore.
    :x
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    iainf72 wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Not so given the evidence up until now has been as i say patchy at best, i am never going to down the if you visit st moritz you are guilty of doping route that others in here go down if thats what you mean. I prefer something a bit more concrete.

    Sure, but when there is a bunch of stuff you still seem prepared to dimiss it. Do you accept that a failed doping test is not the only evidence?

    On occasions yes but it really depends what you mean by evidence a good tester and climber all his career doing these things well in a GT is not what id call enough evidence to say with certainty that doping has been taking place,fling i the failed test being an indicator of sloppy blood doping then you can look at in a different light. In the case of say Ivan Basso he did not fail a test but he admitted to supplying blood with a view to doing it, well you can look at that and say with a fair degree of certainty that he blood doped right up until he was flung out of the 2006 Tour . Other occasions people are quick to accuse based on somewhat tenuous links and training in a certain place etc that to me is not evidence.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Ron Stuart wrote:
    This post for the large part just reeks of Innuendo and frankly factitious drivel.

    Not reading post anymore.
    :x

    Jeezo talk about a self put down :lol:
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Moray Gub wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    I don't see why this would change anyone's mind or make anyone reappraise anything. You either thought he was dirty before and all his career has been dodgy or you think he got caught on a technicality for a relatively minor offence (he didn't win any races because of clenbuterol, did he?).

    Doping in cycling and the cleanliness (or lack thereof) of certain riders has little to do with failing tests.

    Not always so i was always prepared to give him TBOTD given that the evidence was patchy at best at best but for me his positive is indicative of probable sloppy blood doping which would lead me to think he had been at it for some time.

    But sometimes it's better to look at the bigger picture rather than one smaller detail. Starting your career under Manolo Saiz, being linked to Fuentes, then moving on to Bruyneel and Vino is not proof that he doped his way to all those grand tour wins... but a tiny amount of clenbuterol is hardly proof either, so why would you change your mind based on one small piece of evidence? Things rarely happen in isolation. The clen may contribute to the suspicion, but for me it doesn't make me view his palmares any differently.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    afx237vi wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    I don't see why this would change anyone's mind or make anyone reappraise anything. You either thought he was dirty before and all his career has been dodgy or you think he got caught on a technicality for a relatively minor offence (he didn't win any races because of clenbuterol, did he?).

    Doping in cycling and the cleanliness (or lack thereof) of certain riders has little to do with failing tests.

    Not always so i was always prepared to give him TBOTD given that the evidence was patchy at best at best but for me his positive is indicative of probable sloppy blood doping which would lead me to think he had been at it for some time.

    But sometimes it's better to look at the bigger picture rather than one smaller detail. Starting your career under Manolo Saiz, being linked to Fuentes, then moving on to Bruyneel and Vino is not proof that he doped his way to all those grand tour wins... but a tiny amount of clenbuterol is hardly proof either, so why would you change your mind based on one small piece of evidence? Things rarely happen in isolation. The clen may contribute to the suspicion, but for me it doesn't make me view his palmares any differently.

    The positive is exactly that though a positive so its proof that he is prepared to dope to further his career . You can have as many suspicions as you want but it means nothing at the end of the day until you get nailed like he has done or admitted guilt like others have done. A doping positive is worth more than a thousand rumours.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Moray Gub wrote:
    The positive is exactly that though a positive so its proof that he is prepared to dope to further his career . You can have as many suspicions as you want but it means nothing at the end of the day until you get nailed like he has done or admitted guilt like others have done. A doping positive is worth more than a thousand rumours.

    So if you believe that, surely you can't assume Basso was blood doping. After all, they found bags of blood which hadn't been used. This would indicate he was indeed "attemping doping" - Bags of blood at Fuentes offer no proof he did dope.

    Dodgy associations + inhumane performance + what they say should give you a pretty good idea of when something isn't right.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • shockedsoshocked
    shockedsoshocked Posts: 4,021
    No different in my eyes. They're all at it, just some get caught.

    Enjoy the racing,
    "A cyclist has nothing to lose but his chain"

    PTP Runner Up 2015
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    iainf72 wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    The positive is exactly that though a positive so its proof that he is prepared to dope to further his career . You can have as many suspicions as you want but it means nothing at the end of the day until you get nailed like he has done or admitted guilt like others have done. A doping positive is worth more than a thousand rumours.

    So if you believe that, surely you can't assume Basso was blood doping. After all, they found bags of blood which hadn't been used. This would indicate he was indeed "attemping doping" - Bags of blood at Fuentes offer no proof he did dope.
    .

    After finding blood bags belonging to Basso its not a wild leap of faith to assume that he had already blood doped prior to the find. I think he probably blood doped during the 2004 Tour and certainly during the 2006 Giro based on your extraordinary performances evidence.......nobody could have watched him that year and thought otherwise surely.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • Gazzetta67
    Gazzetta67 Posts: 1,890
    God might have known the PREDICTABLE moray gobshyte has been creaming himself with his story all written at school lunchtime no doubt.

    Moray`s thought of the day !!! Yes i can finally deflect all the Lance Fanboy attention away seeing as he`s a goodboy and has never taken anything. How many copies of it`s not about the bike have you ruined as you have shot your load over him :D
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Gazzetta67 wrote:
    God might have known the PREDICTABLE moray gobshyte has been creaming himself with his story all written at school lunchtime no doubt.

    Moray`s thought of the day !!! Yes i can finally deflect all the Lance Fanboy attention away seeing as he`s a goodboy and has never taken anything. How many copies of it`s not about the bike have you ruined as you have shot your load over him :D

    Now, now, let's play nice. What elevates this cycling forum above others is that we generally play the opinion not the man (who we don't actually know) and don't resort to personal insults.

    This forum is unmoderated and it would be nice to keep it that way by self-moderation and general decent behaviour.

    If you want to sling bile around then I would recommend the CyclingNews forum.

    As a rule of thumb, I would suggest not posting anything that you would say in person.

    I'm not the internet police, but I'm confident that most other regulars will agree with me.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • dougzz
    dougzz Posts: 1,833
    Jeeps Rich, you're such a grown-up :)
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    dougzz wrote:
    Jeeps Rich, you're such a grown-up :)

    I know. The days of snorting coke with Czech hookers are sadly gone. It's all CountryFile and Norah Jones these days.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    coinneach wrote:
    I disagree with most of the posts above.

    Its quite common in other sports (eg athletics) for the dope takers to be "past their best" and worried about the "new kids on the block". I think Contador used to be the best but couldn't cope with the prospect of losing. His palmares should stand, and I also think 1 year (when the evidence is somewhat shaky and untried) is fair enough. And I think he's as guilty as Tommy Sheridan, but I doubt if either of them will take it like a man.

    But Contador is still reasonably young for a GT contender, certainly not past his best...if it wasn't for this ban I could have seen him getting at least 5 tour wins, if not bettering lance's record....
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • singlespeedexplosif
    singlespeedexplosif Posts: 1,564
    changes nothing in my view - they're all at it.
  • ratsbeyfus
    ratsbeyfus Posts: 2,841
    RichN95 wrote:
    dougzz wrote:
    Jeeps Rich, you're such a grown-up :)

    I know. The days of snorting coke with Czech hookers are sadly gone. It's all CountryFile and Norah Jones these days.

    Mind you those new late tea time slot CountryFile presenters are f*@king gorgeous.

    I had one of them red bikes but I don't any more. Sad face.

    @ratsbey
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Gazzetta67 wrote:
    God might have known the PREDICTABLE moray gobshyte has been creaming himself with his story all written at school lunchtime no doubt.

    Moray`s thought of the day !!! Yes i can finally deflect all the Lance Fanboy attention away seeing as he`s a goodboy and has never taken anything. How many copies of it`s not about the bike have you ruined as you have shot your load over him :D
    oh dear i think you are getting quite excited at the thought of that arent you.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Gazzetta67 wrote:
    God might have known the PREDICTABLE moray gobshyte has been creaming himself with his story all written at school lunchtime no doubt.

    Moray`s thought of the day !!! Yes i can finally deflect all the Lance Fanboy attention away seeing as he`s a goodboy and has never taken anything. How many copies of it`s not about the bike have you ruined as you have shot your load over him :D
    oh dear i think you are getting quite excited at the thought of that arent you.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    Gazzetta67 wrote:
    God might have known the PREDICTABLE moray gobshyte has been creaming himself with his story all written at school lunchtime no doubt.

    Moray`s thought of the day !!! Yes i can finally deflect all the Lance Fanboy attention away seeing as he`s a goodboy and has never taken anything. How many copies of it`s not about the bike have you ruined as you have shot your load over him :D

    +1 :D

    I think it's incredibly funny that of all people, Moray started this thread! :lol:

    And to answer your question MG, nope, nothing has changed for me. Still think he is a great rider, and look forward to seeing him back after his ban.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Arkibal wrote:
    Gazzetta67 wrote:
    God might have known the PREDICTABLE moray gobshyte has been creaming himself with his story all written at school lunchtime no doubt.

    Moray`s thought of the day !!! Yes i can finally deflect all the Lance Fanboy attention away seeing as he`s a goodboy and has never taken anything. How many copies of it`s not about the bike have you ruined as you have shot your load over him :D

    +1 :D

    I think it's incredibly funny that of all people, Moray started this thread! :lol:

    And to answer your question MG, nope, nothing has changed for me. Still think he is a great rider, and look forward to seeing him back after his ban.

    That fact he is a drug fueled cheat makes no difference to you then ?
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    Moray Gub wrote:
    That fact he is a drug fueled cheat makes no difference to you then ?

    Not really, it's not like he won the races by minutes like, eh, a certain someone did.
    :D
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    Moray Gub wrote:
    [
    That fact he is a drug fueled cheat makes no difference to you then ?

    It rarely does when people pop on those rose tinted glasses.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • singlespeedexplosif
    singlespeedexplosif Posts: 1,564
    That fact he is a drug fueled cheat makes no difference to you then ?

    For drug fueled cheat read 'professional cyclist'. I like watching pro cycling, and the more exciting the better. I'd much rather the sort of edge-of-your-seat Tour we've had in the last few years than the sort of procession we had 7 years on the trot with a certain other drug-fuelled cheat...hence the only disappointment to me is the ban.

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