Daft Q about braking

zummerzet-lou

Yesterday I went for my first ride on hills for years ... (I live on Canterbury Plains, so it's a long ride to get to any hillls!).

I'm quite new to road biking, and had my hands on the brake hoods, but coming down the hills I was finding that my hands couldn't provide enough pressure on the brakes to actually stop (was quite effective for slowing down). Not only that, but made my hands hurt too!

So, when descending, should I have my hands on the drops to be able to squeeze the levers?

Thanks,
Lou

ps. Only did 30 mins and amazed at how much of a struggle the hills were! This was after driving up the "real" hill so was only cycling along the saddle of the hills really. How embarrassing eh?

P_Tucker

You really should be able to brake properly on the hoods. Working around it isn't a great idea - what happens if a car pulls out on you when you're on the hoods?

stevewj

Sounds to me like ^%&$ brakes. They aren't single pivot are they. When I returned to cycling after 30 years I found the dual pivot were superb compared to the old single and stopped in a quarter the distance. Also the older type rims with smooth surfaces were poor at stopping compared to newer machined rims.

sungod

you'll get more braking power in the drops, but really you should have enough on the hoods

check pads/rims are ok, not worn/contaminated

check cables/outers ok, not worn/split

check the brakes are set up properly, pads close as possible to rims without rubbing

the default brake pads are often poor, kool stop or swissstop can be much more effective

brake design is also a factor, for rim brakes, as stevewj says above, dual-pivot caliper brakes are usually best, if you have something else then chances are it won't be so good

keef66

Well I've got longer drop brakes on my bike cos it's got mudguard clearance, and bog standard Shimano pads, but I can still brake well enough from the hoods to stop me on moderate downhills. On anything really steep I tend to be on the drops anyway, and then there's enough leverage to lock both wheels up if I'm not careful.

Maybe for Lou it's the smaller hands / less power issue, or maybe she'd benefit from changing the pads to Koolstop salmons or Swiss stop green?

furrag

I detested the drops for my first 3-4 months of cycling. The hoods aren't great for braking at all at high speeds. Get into the drops for much better breaking leverage. Plus, if you hit a bump /hole at 30+ on the hoods, the last thing you want is your hands coming off of the bars!

P_Tucker

Furrag wrote:

I detested the drops for my first 3-4 months of cycling. The hoods aren't great for braking at all at high speeds. Get into the drops for much better breaking leverage. Plus, if you hit a bump /hole at 30+ on the hoods, the last thing you want is your hands coming off of the bars!

If you can't brake hard enough to throw yourself over the handlebars on the hoods, then you need to sort your bike out.

rick_chasey

Ignore all the hyperbole above.

i had the same with my bike, and I've thrown it down the Pyrenees faster than most people.


In short, yes, you get more pressure from braking on the drops.

P_Tucker

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ignore all the hyperbole above.

And when you need to stop suddenly in an emergency? FFS

furrag

Then you pull the brakes and go over the handlebars to avoid an accident.

Apparently.

P_Tucker

Furrag wrote:

Then you pull the brakes and go over the handlebars to avoid an accident.

Apparently.

Word. I've done that before, and I can reveal that the minor injuries I sustained were most probably less bad than the likely outcome of being hit from the side by a car which may well have knocked me onto the RHS of the road (which was full of traffic doing 30mph).

But hey, that'll never happen to you right?

furrag

I've had to emergency brake from the hoods numerous times, and the Kool Stop Salmons & Swiss stop Flash Pro pads work extremely well. Throwing myself over the handlebars onto the tarmac seems irrational and unnecessarily dangerous to me on a road. I just can't fathom how in an emergency split-second decision one could assess whether going over the bars is a safer option or not. :?

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

Won't I Go Over The Bars?
The rear brake is O.K. for situations where traction is poor, or for when your front tire blows, but for stopping on dry pavement, the front brake alone provides the maximum stopping power, both in theory and in practice.

If you take the time to learn to use the front brake correctly, you will be a safer cyclist.

Many cyclists shy away from using the front brake, due to fear of flying over the handlebars. This does happen, but mainly to people who have not learned to modulate the front brake.

The cyclist who relies on the rear brake for general stopping can get by until an emergency arises, and, in a panic, he or she grabs the unfamiliar front brake as well as the rear, for extra stopping power. This can cause the classic "over the bars" crash.

Jobst Brandt has a quite plausible theory that the typical "over-the-bars" crash is caused, not so much by braking too hard, but by braking hard without using the rider's arms to brace against the deceleration: The bike stops, the rider keeps going until the rider's thighs bump into the handlebars, and the bike, which is no longer supporting the weight of the rider, flips.

This cannot happen when you are using only the rear brake, because as soon as the rear wheel starts to lift, the rear wheel skids, limiting its braking force. Unfortunately, though, it takes twice as long to stop with the rear brake alone as with the front brake alone, so reliance on the rear brake is unsafe for cyclists who ever go fast. It is important to use your arms to brace yourself securely during hard braking, to prevent this. Indeed, good technique involves moving back on your saddle as far as you can comfortably go, to keep the center of gravity as far back as possible. This applies whether you are using the front, rear or both brakes. Using both brakes together can cause "fishtailing." If the rear wheel skids while braking force is also being applied to the front, the rear of the bike will tend to swing past the front, since the front is applying a greater decelerating force than the rear. Once the rear tire starts to skid, it can move sideways as easily as forward.

If you don't believe me, perhaps John Forester can convince you...see his Entry in the rec.bicycles FAQ on Front Brake Usage (Subject: 9.17).

This is a good article to read, Lou; http://www.flammerouge.je/content/3_fac ... escend.htm

P_Tucker

Furrag wrote:

I've had to emergency brake from the hoods numerous times, and the Kool Stop Salmons & Swiss stop Flash Pro pads work extremely well. Throwing myself over the handlebars onto the tarmac seems irrational and unnecessarily dangerous to me on a road. I just can't fathom how in an emergency split-second decision one could assess whether going over the bars is a safer option or not. :?

I don't claim to have evaluated it in that amount of time - I was mostly interested in avoiding being hit by a car, which thanks to my over-powerful brakes I was able to do.

I think in most plausible situations I'd rather hit the tarmac vs hitting a car. Obv ideally I'd have the self control to avoid both, but there you go.

marlin151

Lou - what make / model of front shifters are on your bike?

I had problems on the hoods with DA 7800 - big levers / non adjustable and I could'nt get the leverage on hilly descents so was forced into the drops. Fitted "slim shims" to reduce reach which helped a bit.

With current SRAM Force set up, the levers are a much better shape and fully adjustable. No probs descending fast and braking hard from the hoods.

Perhaps visit your LBS and see if they can adjust angle / reach / adjustment to improve matters.

racingcondor

As others have said braking from the drops is better (easier to control the pull, better centre of gravity and easier to pull hard on the levers) but I've stood the bike on it's front wheel while braking from both positions.

You could have a number of problems, as others have said they could be poor (or just dirty) brakes. It could also be to do with the position of your levers or the size of your hands. If you can't reach the levers properly you won't be able to pull hard on them.

desweller

Out of interest, how much do you lot weigh? I would really struggle to get the rear wheel far off the ground from the hoods, but I'm pretty heavy at 95kg.

ride_whenever

I'm the same as you an i have no problems with endo-ing on demand..,.

rick_chasey

DesWeller wrote:

Out of interest, how much do you lot weigh? I would really struggle to get the rear wheel far off the ground from the hoods, but I'm pretty heavy at 95kg.

54kg

careful

The question is not daft. With a steep descent (steeper than about 20%), 57 mm reach brakes and a heavyish rider it is difficult to stop quickly from the hoods - even with Swiss stop or other expensive pads. I doubt if there is anything wrong with your brakes, but many riders get on the drops before steep descents for this reason.

captain_tiara

Old cables make a surprising difference as well. Changed mine [were well old] recently & was very surprised at braking/gear change difference. And clean/ lube brake calipers, clean brake pads. The worst thing that's happened to me on old cables is to pull the nipple off the end of the cable under braking. :shock:

& when shifting hand position down hilling move one hand at a time. Try braking constant on rear up to lock up/ skid kind of extreme & modulate with front brake.

70% of braking can be done with front BUT you can recover from rear wheel skid [even consider it fun!] whilst lock up the front & you're over the bars/ out of control.

Common sense dictates you should never go faster than you can see to stop. & when you do enjoy the thrill of it.

zummerzet-lou

Thanks everyone ..

I think part of the problem comes from having smaller hands. I'm only 5'2, and quite small framed.

My bike is a 2009 Giant Avail Alliance, so would think the parts etc are modern enough. On the flat I can brake OK from the hoods - enough to stop in an emergency. It was just coming down a moderate hill I just couldn't apply enough pressure - when I moved onto the drops, I stopped a little too quickly so brakes do work!

I might experiment a little hand positions, but sounds as though for anything more than a gentle hill I need to anticipate getting onto the drops in order to stop!

dilemna

If descending a moderate steep hill I would not ride on the hoods but on the drops as if you do have to slam on then you want to try to move your weight back. If you are on the hoods this will be very difficult as your weight will be more forward as the hoods are further forward AND higher up so higher centre of gravity more likely to tip forward.
Also when braking you apply the rear brake marginally before the front to prevent going over the bars as your weight will be transferred rear wards as opposed to forwards by yanking on the front brake first. I am only talking a split second but that is all that is needed. You have much better control of your bike as well. Fairly basic and elementary bike control really.

On the flat or slight downhill or even going up hill you should easily be able to stop readily if your hands are on the hoods covering the brake levers. I just wouldn't recommend this going down any significant slope.

So in summary descend moderate to steep hills on the drops. It is much safer.

pst88

dilemna wrote:

Also when braking you apply the rear brake marginally before the front to prevent going over the bars as your weight will be transferred rear wards as opposed to forwards by yanking on the front brake first.

Pulling the rear brake doesn't transfer your weight rearwards. Your weight is still transferred forwards when you pull the back brake which is why it's so much easier to skid the rear wheel as it becomes unweighted. The reason your method might help is that by the time you've pulled the front brake you're already going a bit slower from using the back brake first so the braking is less dramatic.