Very sad demise of one of our elders

thesquireofbanwell

A moment of respect please re the below
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gl ... e-12201439
Many thanks

Dancing Bear

That is terrible new - really bad, what a tragedy and a loss due to wreckless driving seemingly

redvee

Saw this on the local news last night and I think I know the deceased, the name is familiar but until I can see a photo I'm hoping it is a sad coincidence.

beverick

Dancing Bear wrote:

That is terrible new - really bad, what a tragedy and a loss due to wreckless driving seemingly

There's absolutely no basis for that conclusion from the information in the article.

BigJimmyB

He did only say 'seemingly', but let's see what comes out.

Regardless, RIP Pat.

sloboy

True. I imagine the comment arose from a perception that in non-icy conditions, a very experienced cyclist who isn't racing or training hard will make very, very few mistakes at the level to cause an accident.

That's partly because we're going pretty slow compared to the rest of the traffic which de-magnifies any small errors we may make, unless someone is in our "zone of uncertainty".

Pross

BigJimmyB wrote:

He did only say 'seemingly', but let's see what comes out.

Regardless, RIP Pat.

But there is nothing in the report to seemingly suggest anything. Once again someone has jumped to a conclusion that any accident involving a motorist and a cyclist is the motorists fault.

Sorry for the side track, RIP Pat.

shm_uk

Any unnecessary death is always tragic...


I concluded a long time ago that the human race is an ass (true stories):

2 MMA deaths since 2007 due to Traumatic Brain Injury : calls for ban on MMA.
1 death due to a window blind : calls for a ban on window blinds.
2 deaths confirmed as directly attributable to "Meow Meow" (as of July 2010) : calls for a ban on 'legal highs'.
1 child crushed by electric gate : calls for a ban on electric gates in residential areas.
1 puppy frightened by firework & died running under a car : calls for ban on sale of fireworks.

... and finally:

3000 people killed on Britains roads on average every year for the past decade

Calls for a ban on cars? Anyone? ... (cue tumbleweed) No . I didn't think so.

tebbit

RIP Pat

gregster10217

RIP Pat, always sad when one of ours dies, regardless of how. Thoughts to the family.

JLM74

Terrible news. RIP.

dilemna

RIP.

I hope the driver who did this gets strung up.

desweller

dilemna wrote:

I hope the driver who did this gets strung up.

Steady on chap. Don't know the circumstances yet.

RIP Pat.

spen666

sloboy wrote:

True. I imagine the comment arose from a perception that in non-icy conditions, a very experienced cyclist who isn't racing or training hard will make very, very few mistakes at the level to cause an accident.
...".

Alternatively:


a perception that in non-icy conditions, a very experienced driver who isn't racing or training hard will make very, very few mistakes at the level to cause an accident.



There is nothingfactual upon which to approtion blame in the newspaper article.
It could be either party to blame or neither- it could have been caused by a 3rd party, even another cyclist

Stop making wild speculative accusations

spen666

sloboy wrote:

True. I imagine the comment arose from a perception that in non-icy conditions, a very experienced cyclist who isn't racing or training hard will make very, very few mistakes at the level to cause an accident.
...".

Alternatively:


a perception that in non-icy conditions, a very experienced driver who isn't racing or training hard will make very, very few mistakes at the level to cause an accident.



There is nothingfactual upon which to approtion blame in the newspaper article.
It could be either party to blame or neither- it could have been caused by a 3rd party, even another cyclist

Stop making wild speculative accusations

Buckled_Rims

The BBC news story has been edited. I read it last night and I'm sure it said the driver had been arrested on careless driving. What I've just read is not the full article I read last night, possibly Dancing Bear also read the same as what I did.

RIP Pat.

Pross

Buckled_Rims wrote:

The BBC news story has been edited. I read it last night and I'm sure it said the driver had been arrested on careless driving. What I've just read is not the full article I read last night, possibly Dancing Bear also read the same as what I did.

RIP Pat.

Even then an arrest doesn't show guilt. People often get arrested following a fatal accident but don't even get charged. As we can see from Dilemna's post there are people who assume guilt and would have the motorist strung up with no evidence.

dilemna

Pross wrote:

Buckled_Rims wrote:

The BBC news story has been edited. I read it last night and I'm sure it said the driver had been arrested on careless driving. What I've just read is not the full article I read last night, possibly Dancing Bear also read the same as what I did.

RIP Pat.

Even then an arrest doesn't show guilt. People often get arrested following a fatal accident but don't even get charged. As we can see from Dilemna's post there are people who assume guilt and would have the motorist strung up with no evidence.

Yep certainly where motons are concerned. The cyclist who was killed was I believe a very exerienced "proper" cyclist. All the very "experienced" proper cyclists on here, if you were knocked down would it be because it WAS your fault? When I was knocked down a car drove straight into the back of me taking me down. The f*cker then lied through his f*ckin teeth that I had ridden (backwards, yep backwards) into him. The police arrested and charged him with careless driving and he was subsequently found guilty. But there were two excellent witnesses that saw him run me down. But more often there are no witnesses and injured or dead cyclists receive very poor justice - oh just another cyclist. The fact that some one a dad, brother, son, Mum, sister, daughter has been killed and the driver has driven off or had lied through their teeth to escape prosecution or conviciton is of little consequence.

This country is so lenient on motons it's unreal. I believe the driver in this incident was arrested on suspicion of careless/reckless driving. Yes they are innocent until proven guilty but this is only a matter of time until convicted (They'll probably get off through lying or on a technicality). Experienced competent cyclists simply don't crash and die if no one has crashed into them unless they have an underlying medical issue which wasn't, I understand, the case in this death. Nope I believe many motons are appalling drivers and when caught they will use any means fair or foul to get off. How about Range Rover woman having driven into a woman cyclist killing her then colliding with her cycling husband, then crashing into another car and finally demolishing a roundabout claimed that her actions were not due to dangerous driving or using a mobile whilst driving but due to some medical condition that she could not remember what happened. How convenient, how very convenient. So she gets off.

I say string 'em up. The more the better. Let that be a deterrent to others for driving like morons and killing other road users and cyclists. Approx 3000 people are killed on the roads every year. Some bloody stupid air head on R4 his morning was suggesing that minimum alcohol pricing would save 21 lives a year. Well if these 21 people would prefer to drink themselves to death then let them, concentrate instead on saving some of the 3000 lives lost on the roads each year. A start can made made by stringing up dangerous motons who kill cyclists. End of rant.

RIP Pat Appleton.

Pross

I know of an experienced cyclist (Welsh international) who died riding into the back of a stationary car so to suggest that an experienced "proper" cyclist could only be killed on the road by a motorists mistake is plainly b***ocks. I had a near miss myself at a roundabout a few months back, I pulled out into a safe gap and missed clipping into my pedals which sent me swerving all over the road and nearly crashing. The driver behind avoided me luckily but if they hadn't it would have been my fault, I count myself as an experienced proper cyclist with over 20 years of experience. You could quite easily hit a pot hole, swerve to avoid an animal or just have your bike break on you leading to you ending up in the path of a vehicle that has nowehere to go. I agree that motorists who are convicted of causing the death of cyclists are often treated too leniently but your rant is just plain ridiculous.

dilemna

Pross wrote:

I know of an experienced cyclist (Welsh international) who died riding into the back of a stationary car so to suggest that an experienced "proper" cyclist could only be killed on the road by a motorists mistake is plainly b***ocks. I had a near miss myself at a roundabout a few months back, I pulled out into a safe gap and missed clipping into my pedals which sent me swerving all over the road and nearly crashing. The driver behind avoided me luckily but if they hadn't it would have been my fault, I count myself as an experienced proper cyclist with over 20 years of experience. You could quite easily hit a pot hole, swerve to avoid an animal or just have your bike break on you leading to you ending up in the path of a vehicle that has nowehere to go. I agree that motorists who are convicted of causing the death of cyclists are often treated too leniently but your rant is just plain ridiculous.

No it isn't. Have you ever been taken down by a moton?

Pross

Yes, got right hooked by a van and went over its bonnet - the driver laughed when they saw I was OK. I've also been the driver of a car when a cyclist came through a red and hit my car (I was stationary waiting to turn right, he was kitted out in lycra and on a proper bike so I guess it was my fault?). You seem to have had a bad incident with a motorist where they were to blame but it would appear to have skewed your opinions to the point where you can no longer view things rationally and accept that sometimes a cyclist can make an error or judgement just as much as a motorist can (no suggestion that that is true here anymore than there is that the motorist is to blame and sorry for dragging the thread off track).

dilemna

Pross wrote:

Yes, got right hooked by a van and went over its bonnet - the driver laughed when they saw I was OK. I've also been the driver of a car when a cyclist came through a red and hit my car (I was stationary waiting to turn right, he was kitted out in lycra and on a proper bike so I guess it was my fault?). You seem to have had a bad incident with a motorist where they were to blame but it would appear to have skewed your opinions to the point where you can no longer view things rationally and accept that sometimes a cyclist can make an error or judgement just as much as a motorist can (no suggestion that that is true here anymore than there is that the motorist is to blame and sorry for dragging the thread off track).

I mean taken down and injured.

Nothing has skewed my judgement strawman. I just see that the odds and system are stacked heavily against cyclists. Too many of us are being killed on the roads and b*gger all is being done to prevent this. The barrister Martin Porter has recently created a few waves bringing this to forefront in the media but how much of an affect even he will have is debatable IMHO. A cyclist who has been knocked down and lost their life is just seen as another one of those unfortunate accidents. No it f*cking isn't! So if this is not the case then strawman why on this and numerous other forums, are there many many tales of cyclists being closed passed by motons unknowingly or knowingly, run off the road, abused, threated or assualted, seriously injured or killed? Why is there apparently such hatred amd ridicule toward cyclists in this country? Because the car is KING and people are ignorant FLB.

Pross

Oh well there's obviously no reasoning with you. If you are arguing that penalties are too lenient when a motorist kills a cyclist I would tend to agree with you but your inflammatory language is suggesting that motorists are automatically responsible for the death, particularly if the cyclist was "serious" or "experienced" and should be strung up (i.e. sentenced more harshly than mass murderers etc.). Why the hatred of cyclists in this country? To be honest I haven't experienced this - I get the odd idiot who shouts a bit of abuse but then I get that occassionally when driving as well. There are plenty of cases of road rage among two motorists. Maybe you get more than your fair share as you seem to be carrying a huge chip around and possibly aggrevate motorists you come across with your attitude towards them?

As for the "straw man" taunts please show me an example - I have acknowledged that sentencing of convicted offenders is, in my opinion, often too lenient but did you or did you not make the comment that experienced proper cyclists would not be at fault? Did you say that as the driver in this case was arrested at the time that it was only a matter of time before they are convicted (prejudice?) although to be fair you did then completely contradict yourself by saying they would get off on a technicality :?

You have obviously had a bad experience yourself that has taken away the ability to approach this subject with an rational thought and perhaps understandably so. Maybe some psychiatric help will enable you to come to terms with this hatred of motorists?

Oh, and for the record the latest accident statistics I have available (2009) showed that there were 2,222 people killed on the roads of which 104 were cyclists. It is still far too high but 26% lower than the figure you keep using. You also use it to support your views on cyclists being killed when the vast majority of deaths are motorists.

I hope I never end up in the dock with you on the jury!

desweller

This bickering isn't really honouring Pat's memory, is it gents? Can you take it to another thread please?

Pross

True and apologies to Pat's friends and family.

753forme

Remember Zak Carr - his rear light was found embedded in the front grille of the guy's car who hit him. The driver denied it - lying through his teeth. Got 5 years in the end. So he would have been out in less than 3 with good behaviour. And what about the guy that killed the four cyclists from Rhyl CC. Oh yes there was black ice, so that excused him from driving at 50mph and having bald tyres? He got £180 and six points on his licence. I am sorry but it's time for the law to be applied fairly. Throw a fire extinguisher off a building (tory party hq) - yes very stupid, could have kllled some one, but the judge has to make an example of you - so you get a jail term of 32 months. balanced? fair? Impartial Non-political? But hit a cyclist who has the right to use the road from behind and you might get away with it. With no witnesses definitely. Don't know the circumstances of this case and yes cyclists do make mistakes too, I have. But at present the law seems to be Kill a cyclist and go home for tea and medals it seems.