First they came for the bankers...

Stick8267

So apparently it's now down to NHS consultants doing overtime at the request of their employer to clear waiting lists.

Up to £250 per hour but surely the amount is down to negotiation and if the managers organised the system so the work could be done in standard hours it wouldn't be necessary.

Btw the biggest spending Trust only managed to spend, in total, a moderate individual city bonus.

rick_chasey

Not sure what the point is here?

snailracer

Rick Chasey wrote:

Not sure what the point is here?

This is Commuting Chat - there doesn't have to be one :P

rick_chasey

snailracer wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Not sure what the point is here?

This is Commuting Chat - there doesn't have to be one :P

I thought it was cake stop :? .

Wooliferkins

It's a very expensive surgical procedure removing golf clubs from consultants hands.

rick_chasey

It gets more and more cryptic...

Homer J

Double bubble on the weekend

Pross

In my opinion Consultants are worth every penny they get after my daughter went through an 11 hour life saving operation. Anyone with the skill and patience to undertake such a stressful job simply can't be paid enough. If there are not enough staff and not enough funds to bring in additional staff then I'd rather my taxes went to paying these highly skilled professionals overtime in order to ensure that urgent operations can be undertaken and even that non-urgent waiting lists are reduced.

shouldbeinbed

Pross wrote:

In my opinion Consultants are worth every penny they get after my daughter went through an 11 hour life saving operation. Anyone with the skill and patience to undertake such a stressful job simply can't be paid enough. If there are not enough staff and not enough funds to bring in additional staff then I'd rather my taxes went to paying these highly skilled professionals overtime in order to ensure that urgent operations can be undertaken and even that non-urgent waiting lists are reduced.

This but son, 6 and various ops. Our consultant is literally a lifesaver covers 5 hospitals & no golf courses

snailracer

Rick Chasey wrote:

snailracer wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Not sure what the point is here?

This is Commuting Chat - there doesn't have to be one :P

I thought it was cake stop :? .

Oops, you're right. So where are the cakes?

Tom Butcher

Arguably the people that build and maintain the sewerage system save more lives than hospital consultants but they generally wont be getting a close to a quarter of a surgeon's salary. If you want it more direct then paramedics, police and fireservice save lives without those kind of rewards. Part of the reason there aren't enough staff and funds is because consultants - in common with all doctors - are so over paid. And as for paid overtime - don't most salaried staff work extra hours unpaid ?

When the govt is bitching about the head of a large local authority earning over 100k a year where is the justification for a GP earning as much and a surgeon earning over twice that.

rhext

Journalists who write these kind of stories, editors who select them and presenters who read them out should all be compelled by law to state what they're earning before they have a go at others......

Am not sure I accept 'it's all the manager's fault' in this instance though. Excessive overtime is often an indication of a capacity constraint of some sort: there aren't enough consultants so we have to work the ones we have harder. As far as I'm concerned, this is an interesting piece of information, but without any facts explaining why it's happening it's impossible to draw any real conclusions. Greedy consultants? Incompetant managers? Temporary spike in demand? Transitory problem in single hospital? Shortage of consultants? Lack of university places 15 years ago? Foreign doctors less willing to come and work in impoverished UK?

I think the only thing we can legitimately complain about on this one is the lazy journalists: the ones looking for a cheap bit of inflammatory copy; but without going to the trouble to dig up the underlying facts.

EKIMIKE

I think this is more an issue of relative pay. Nurses and Midwives pay is very much less than that of Doctors. Obviously they shouldn't be equal as Doctors and particularly consultants are more qualified/do a more skilled job but there is a massive pay gap.

I know this is only anecdotal but a member of my family is a Midwife and used to get paid less than £20 per night for being 'on-call'. She knew Doctors who got the same as her but per hour not per night for exactly the same 'on-call' situation.

The Doctors have a strong/powerful union to maintain and improve their working conditions/pay. Nurses and Midwives not so. It's not that Doctors are over-rated but other medical professionals being under-rated. It's no co-incidence that there is a shortage of Nurses and Midwives. The pay really isn't all that great for the magnitude of their work.

Pross

Tom Butcher wrote:

Arguably the people that build and maintain the sewerage system save more lives than hospital consultants but they generally wont be getting a close to a quarter of a surgeon's salary. If you want it more direct then paramedics, police and fireservice save lives without those kind of rewards. Part of the reason there aren't enough staff and funds is because consultants - in common with all doctors - are so over paid. And as for paid overtime - don't most salaried staff work extra hours unpaid ?

When the govt is bitching about the head of a large local authority earning over 100k a year where is the justification for a GP earning as much and a surgeon earning over twice that.

I'm afraid that this is nonsense (from someone who designs sewer systems and certainly doesn't feel that justifies a surgeon's salary!). The skill level of a surgeon educationally and professionally is one of the highest there is out there. I'm pretty sure that with training I could do the job of a firefighter, police officer, nurse etc. but I seriously doubt I would ever be able to do a surgeons job even with the years of training they go through. I would be cutting the salaries of non-surgical management a long time before cutting that of surgeons or doctors in general. Remember that these doctors have all gone through years of long hours for reasonably low pay before they get to this stage. Go through 11 hours of neurosurgery and tell me the surgeon isn't worth whatever he earns! All hospital medical staff will be earning overtime from my mum who is an auxillary nurse to the country's top brain surgeon.

MattC59

My Mum is a radiographer, and works very closely with consultants. She's also jsut been through a long period of Chemo and Radiotherapy, so she has a lot of experience of consultants from both sides of the table.

Whilst a generalisation, she says that consultants are more often highly overpaid for the work that they do. They don't have the people skills and professionalism of the Doctors and Nurses and see their job as exactly that, a job, a means to earn money.

As I said, she sees this day in day out in her job, but as I also said, this accounts for a large portion of them, there are exceptions.

MattC59

Oh, and just to add to this, my Fathers GP, who works 9-5, Monday to Friday, earns £250k pa !

rick_chasey

It's the free market guys. You want it different, you need a new economic model. The free market is not fair, in the sense of what is being discussed above, by it's very nature.
You want nurses to be paid more than footballers? Change the system! Otherwise, stop being jealous, that some people earn a lot more than you do. After all, if it's such a lazy way to make a lot of money, why don't you do it?

mrushton

First of all Doctors will tell you that it's a 'calling' but they don't do it for free do they? But a Consultant has to undergo years of training to achieve that position and often it's about the skills they do/don't achieve. Surgery is a tough calling, v.competitive and the specialisations within that eg Brain/Cardio etc are harder. They can command the pay because they control the market in terms of skills and authority ie they can prescribe and make the final decisions re treatment. As for GP's pay, that was set by the Govt. some years back when they gave the GPs new contracts. The Govt. set the targets they wanted to achieve and the rewards for going above the targets. However, the bar was set low and Doctors are motivated people. Someone I know who is a Consultant and whose wife is a GP told me that they couldn't believe the t&c set by the Govt. and gladly signed on the dotted line. No out-of-hours and the chance to go >£100k pa? What would you do? However anyone who has been treated or had relatives treated by a good Doctor knows that they are worth the money, it's the midwives etc whose pay needs to be brought up

Stick8267

The biggest reason consultants are paid significantly more than nurses is less to do with training and more to do with responsibility.

When it all hits the fan and a life is at stake the nurse, midwife, junior doctor or GP pushes a button and calls for help to take over. As a consultant you are the help and when you look over your shoulder to see who is propping you up the answer is nobody.

That's realy why we get more.

This used to be recognised and we were left to do a professional job. Admittedly there were a few who abused the system but the vast majority of consultants did far more than they were paid for. Now, however, we are managed against job plans that require us to justify every single minute of our time. The professionalism is being stripped out and people are deciding to simply undertake their contract. Everybody is suffering as a result.

The NHS is rapidly turning in to a very poor employer and there are plenty of us looking to get out!

EKIMIKE

Rick Chasey wrote:

You want nurses to be paid more than footballers? ...a lazy way to make a lot of money...

I don't think anyone has said this. I'm surprised you would take such a simplistic view. Certainly my argument isn't that Nurses should be paid as much as Doctors but Doctors get paid too much in relation to their fellow medical professionals i.e. Nurses, Midwives e.t.c.

We have a National Health Service paid for by the tax payer. There is a central 'pot' of money, the distribution of which has very little to do with free markets. Fair enough, if doctors want to go and practice privately then fine and they'll probably make a shed-load of money. But as for the NHS, Doctors get too great-a-share of the pie.

I guess the only stark economic analysis that can be made in relation to this topic is that not enough people choose professions such as nursing because it simply does doesn't 'pay'. You need a degree to be a nurse so to pay your way through Uni and then go into a profession with very limited financial opportunities - surely it's clear to see, there is a problem and this is the reason.

A Nurse's salary i'd guess is around 25k p.a. It's definitely not above 30k p.a. Whereas a GP is getting around 100k p.a. Should there really be a £75,000 pay gap between these two demanding professions?

mrushton

Depends on the careers. Midwife tutors at Unis are paid more as they are also lecturers/senior lecturers. Consultants however can do private work and there is also a bonus system of £75k that is voted on by doctors who award it each other

mgcycleguy

.... its simple... Something is only worth what someone else will pay for it, so you are worth what you negotiate....

Pross

EKIMIKE wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

You want nurses to be paid more than footballers? ...a lazy way to make a lot of money...

I don't think anyone has said this. I'm surprised you would take such a simplistic view. Certainly my argument isn't that Nurses should be paid as much as Doctors but Doctors get paid too much in relation to their fellow medical professionals i.e. Nurses, Midwives e.t.c.

From NHS site: Doctors in training earn a basic salary and will be paid a supplement if they work more than 40 hours and/or work outside the hours of 7am-7pm Monday to Friday.

In the most junior hospital trainee post (Foundation Year 1) the basic starting salary is £22,412. This increases in Foundation Year 2 to £27,798. For a doctor in specialist training the basic starting salary is £29,705. If the doctor is contracted to work more than 40 hours and/or to work outside 7am-7pm Monday to Friday, they will receive an additional supplement which will normally be between 20% and 50% of basic salary. This supplement is based on the extra hours worked above a 40 hour standard working week and the intensity of the work

Starting salary for a qualified nurse is about £21k and the top rate for a nurse consultant is about £67k which is not far off the top rate for a specialist doctor (£70k)

Sort of shoots the argument that there's too big a differential down in flames!

I knew a nurse who worked at sister grade on a salary of over £30k and she could pick up the equivalent of a weeks salary for a couple of weekend agency shifts! On one occassion she got about £90 per hour but that was exceptional (covering Christmas or New Year). In my mum's hospital nurses at one point were avoiding putting their names down on the bank as they could earn much more doing agency work so why not start a thread about greedy nurses??

EKIMIKE

So even based on your conservative figures, the pay gap between a nurse who is doing very well (30K) and a GP who is doing very well (80K) should be 50K? I don't think that's right. Again, i think the fact that there aren't enough people entering the nursing and midwifery professions is a bad thing and you can see why - pay. It's not the only thing but it's a massive factor.

As far as midwives are concerned Band 7 (30-40K) is the highest you can go before stepping into a full time management job (with little practise element). My mother is/was a band 7 Midwife and she was issued with the ultimatum of taking on a part management/part practice role or being moved to band 6 (25-34K).

And FYI your average nurse is on Band 5 earning 21-27K p.a. You average Midwife is Band 6 25-34K.

So in Foundation Year 2 a Doctor is already earning the most a standard (non-management) nurse is going to ever be able to earn.

Argument 'shot down'? Think not.

EKIMIKE

And i'd also be wary of this idea that Consultants get paid so much more because they take it on when the shoot hits the fan. Obviously there is no doubt they do but so do Nurses and Midwives.

Again, it's anecdotal so make of it what you will but my mother has resuscitated numerous people, and babies as a nurse and then as a midwife. There's plenty of life saving which goes on outside of the operating theatre too.

Just to clarify again, i'm not advocating equal pay between doctors (consultants, registrars, GP's e.t.c) nurses and midwives but there gap should be smaller. I don't think Doctors are greedy or lazy. They just get paid too much in relation to their fellow professionals.

Tom Butcher

EKIMIKE wrote:

So even based on your conservative figures, the pay gap between a nurse who is doing very well (30K) and a GP who is doing very well (80K) should be 50K? I don't think that's right.

GPs already average over 100k.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1567887/Average-salary-for-a-GP-leaps-to-110000.html

Doctors pay is one of the things bleeding the NHS dry - they may save lives but their excessive pay also costs lives because the money could be spent on patient care.

There was an article in the local paper last year listing public sector employees on over 100k - three quarters were doctors. The article then went on to criticise how the head of the local authority was on (I think) something like 130k a year - so apparently being a slightly above average earning GP is worth more than heading up a major organisation with thousands of employees and a multi million pound budget.

bails87

If being a doctor was as easy as being a nurse then all the people who trained to be £25k nurses could easily switch to being £100k doctors, right?


/stirring

bompington

bails87 wrote:

If being a doctor was as easy as being a nurse then all the people who trained to be £25k nurses could easily switch to being £100k doctors, right?


/stirring

I'm beginning to wonder if Tom Butcher was rejected by medical school...
[/stirring some more]

Tom Butcher

No but I sure wish I'd applied - sitting in an office telling people to go away and rest and if it didn't get better I'll refer you to someone who knows about that sort of thing can't be bad for 110k a year.

snailracer

EKIMIKE wrote:

And i'd also be wary of this idea that Consultants get paid so much more because they take it on when the shoot hits the fan. Obviously there is no doubt they do but so do Nurses and Midwives.

Again, it's anecdotal so make of it what you will but my mother has resuscitated numerous people, and babies as a nurse and then as a midwife. There's plenty of life saving which goes on outside of the operating theatre too.

Just to clarify again, i'm not advocating equal pay between doctors (consultants, registrars, GP's e.t.c) nurses and midwives but there gap should be smaller. I don't think Doctors are greedy or lazy. They just get paid too much in relation to their fellow professionals.

How about dentists? They thought NHS pay was too low, so they moved to private practice en masse. Now you can't find an NHS dentist for love nor money, and private treatment is much more expensive. If you reduce doctors' pay to below market rates, I would expect the same thing to happen.

How "worthy" a job is has little to do with how much pay goes with it, the market dictates the pay.

bompington

snailracer wrote:

They thought NHS pay was too low, so they moved to private practices en masse. Now you can't find an NHS dentist for love nor money, and private treatment is much more expensive. If you reduce doctors' pay to below market rates, I would expect the same thing to happen.

How "worthy" a job is has little to do with how much pay goes with it, the market dictates the pay.

Precisely. The reason GPs pay has gone up so dramatically is that a few years ago, no-one wanted to be a GP: the hours were too long, the work too hard ("sitting in an office telling people to go away and rest and if it didn't get better I'll refer you to someone who knows about that sort of thing" is a cheap little shot that bears no resemblance to what GPs actually have to do) and the pay not enough. They were in a good position to negotiate a good deal, and boy they did.

BTW if you want to know about comparative responsibility and liability, ask a GP and a nurse how much they each have to pay in professional indemnity insurance.