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Ti Bolts

dan1502dan1502 Posts: 568
edited January 2011 in MTB workshop & tech
I've managed to get some Ti caliper mount and stem bolts for a decent price (and the quality seems good too) but they don't have washers. Are washers necessary?
Santa Cruz Tallboy

Posts

  • Just think of the extra weight they'll add to the bike? :wink:
  • bennett_346bennett_346 Posts: 5,029
    John Moore wrote:
    Just think of the extra weight they'll add to the bike? :wink:
    lol.

    how much did they cost in total?
  • dan1502dan1502 Posts: 568
    About £35 posted for 8 caliper bolts, 6 stem bolts and 12 rotor bolts and a stem cap bollt.

    Given how much I've saved buying pretty much as new second hand parts and great discounts on new parts I thought I'd treat myself. Saving a few grams is always good but corrosion resistance is also important.

    I was just wondering if I need to use washers or not. If so I'll either get some Ti ones or use stainless but if not then I won't bother.
    Santa Cruz Tallboy
  • *AJ**AJ* Posts: 1,080
    You got a link?...Sounds like a good deal!
  • dan1502dan1502 Posts: 568
    Ok, rotor bolts were from here:

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT

    The other bolts were from another ebay shop but I bought them in a couple of transactions, the first through ebay and the second dealing directly with him which meant I got a better deal. I don't think I should post his email on here so pm me if you want it.

    Now, can someone please answer my question ;-) Is the washer just there to protect what the bolt presses against from the turning action when tightening or is there more to it than that? I understand when larger diameter washers than bolts are used it spreads the load but that's no the case with many of the captive washer bolts on bikes as the head and washer are virtually if not the same diameter.
    Santa Cruz Tallboy
  • 02gf7402gf74 Posts: 1,168
    check out seeler; Manda1213

    £ 10.56 for 12 Ti rotor bolts.

    You do not need to use washers.
  • The RookieThe Rookie Posts: 27,804
    Washers are good practice as they usually protect the component being damaged by the head rotating on the surface.

    Simon.
    Current steed - Whyte T129, 2013 frame, mongrel Revelations, Giant dropper, Stans S1 wheelset. 12, Magura Trail Sport brakes, 1x11. 12.8Kg
  • BG2000BG2000 Posts: 517
    dan1502 wrote:
    I've managed to get some Ti caliper mount and stem bolts for a decent price (and the quality seems good too) but they don't have washers. Are washers necessary?

    Did the caliper and stem bolts not use washers originally. If so, then of course you should use them. What could you possibly gain by not using them. Is the problem that they're rusty ?

    I guess Ti is nice, but I'd rather stick to the bolts specified by the manufacturer as you've got some guarantee of quality and machining tolerance. I've never had any bolts rust on my bike. The chain is the only thing that gets rusty.
  • dan1502dan1502 Posts: 568
    The washers on the originals were captive. The main reason I bought them was that I just fancied them to be honest and the price I found them for seemed reasonable. Also when I picked up the caliper adapter it felt light but the bolts felt really heavy in comparison.

    I'm not doing a weight weenie build but the frame is carbon and I am trying to save weight in some areas to give me 'credit' to add weight in others eg stronger rims, brakes and possibly an adjustable seatpost. In other words a robust build but still light.

    I wouldn't have bothered at the prices I have seen them at. I thought protecting the component was the only reason given the washers are the same size as the head but just wanted to check.

    Whilst looking I saw 100 botls for sale from an ex F1 team and missed them on ebay due to my pc firing up slow - they went for about £23!
    Santa Cruz Tallboy
  • BG2000BG2000 Posts: 517
    dan1502 wrote:

    I'm not doing a weight weenie build but the frame is carbon and I am trying to save weight in some areas to give me 'credit' to add weight in others eg stronger rims, brakes and possibly an adjustable seatpost. In other words a robust build but still light.

    I'm with you there - I've got some very light XC parts to keep weight down, alongside some very strong AM wheels. I want to ride all day, so that means keeping weight down, but having parts that won't fail on you.
  • The RookieThe Rookie Posts: 27,804
    Good deal on brake ti bolt set here http://www.virtualvillage.co.uk/12-x-m5 ... 0-061.html

    12 disc bolts and 8 M6x20mm for £18.99.

    Simon
    Current steed - Whyte T129, 2013 frame, mongrel Revelations, Giant dropper, Stans S1 wheelset. 12, Magura Trail Sport brakes, 1x11. 12.8Kg
  • 02gf7402gf74 Posts: 1,168
    BG2000 wrote:
    dan1502 wrote:
    I guess Ti is nice, but I'd rather stick to the bolts specified by the manufacturer as you've got some guarantee of quality and machining tolerance. I've never had any bolts rust on my bike. The chain is the only thing that gets rusty.

    the Ti bolts I received are machined and appear to be done well (actually strongest bolts are stamped but Ti is hard to manipulate). Without looking up the numbers, Ti is not as strong as 8.8 or higher grade steel but I'm gonna chance it, after all, SRAM supply Ti bolts with their XX rotors; plus the rotor is not highly stressed and is held to the hub by friction with 6 bolts.

    I would not use them for high stressed areas such as seat post clamp, stem and bar clamps although peeople do.

    When I get round to it, I will be replacing the caliper mounting bolts with Ti.

    Maybe there should be a post about who has had Ti bolts fail? :shock:
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,667
    02GF74 wrote:
    the Ti bolts I received are machined and appear to be done well (actually strongest bolts are stamped but Ti is hard to manipulate). Without looking up the numbers, Ti is not as strong as 8.8 or higher grade steel but I'm gonna chance it, after all, SRAM supply Ti bolts with their XX rotors; plus the rotor is not highly stressed and is held to the hub by friction with 6 bolts.

    I would not use them for high stressed areas such as seat post clamp, stem and bar clamps although peeople do.

    When I get round to it, I will be replacing the caliper mounting bolts with Ti.
    As far as i know, rolled bolts are the strongest. They were the only ones we were allowed to use on heavy duty circuit breakers.

    The shear force on the bolts that hold a brake disc on are far greater than a handlebar. You can easily stop the handlebar's movement with your arms, but I seriously doubt you'd be able to stop the wheel rotating with your arms.
    Calliper mounting bolts are under less stress, due to the direction of loading, but still not something I'd toy with.
  • The RookieThe Rookie Posts: 27,804
    I don't recall stem face plate bolts failing when we only had 2, I think the standard is only 4 now for stiffness, so 4 Ti should cope just fine!

    Simon
    Current steed - Whyte T129, 2013 frame, mongrel Revelations, Giant dropper, Stans S1 wheelset. 12, Magura Trail Sport brakes, 1x11. 12.8Kg
  • dan1502dan1502 Posts: 568
    Good deal on brake ti bolt set here http://www.virtualvillage.co.uk/12-x-m5 ... 0-061.html

    12 disc bolts and 8 M6x20mm for £18.99.

    Simon

    I might be wrong but if I recall correctly I think there might be something dodgy about this site.
    Santa Cruz Tallboy
  • The RookieThe Rookie Posts: 27,804
    Thaks Dan, wasn't imminently buying anyway....

    Yeehaa, disc bolts should clamp the disc such that friction stops it rotating on the hub, there should be no shear force on the bolt at all, only tension creating the clamping force.

    Simon
    Current steed - Whyte T129, 2013 frame, mongrel Revelations, Giant dropper, Stans S1 wheelset. 12, Magura Trail Sport brakes, 1x11. 12.8Kg
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,667
    Thaks Dan, wasn't imminently buying anyway....

    Yeehaa, disc bolts should clamp the disc such that friction stops it rotating on the hub, there should be no shear force on the bolt at all, only tension creating the clamping force.

    Simon
    There will be shear force on the botls though. No way around that.
  • The RookieThe Rookie Posts: 27,804
    Yes, if its clamped correctly there is NO shear force!

    If the bolt has clearance all the way round it in the hole, and the disc doesn't rotate on the hub, there is no shear force (its how we mount timing pulleys to camshafts, any roatational force would do up or undo the bolt!)

    Simon
    Current steed - Whyte T129, 2013 frame, mongrel Revelations, Giant dropper, Stans S1 wheelset. 12, Magura Trail Sport brakes, 1x11. 12.8Kg
  • cavegiantcavegiant Posts: 1,546
    virtual village is ok, they just take AGES to ship, AGES.

    So you will get your stuff but expect to wait up to 2 months.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?
  • The RookieThe Rookie Posts: 27,804
    Thanks CG, prices for tibolts is certainly the best (by far) I've come across! Its just the cost/weight saving is not that good!

    Simon
    Current steed - Whyte T129, 2013 frame, mongrel Revelations, Giant dropper, Stans S1 wheelset. 12, Magura Trail Sport brakes, 1x11. 12.8Kg
  • dan1502dan1502 Posts: 568
    Maybe I'm getting it mixed up with another site then.
    Santa Cruz Tallboy
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