Touring with 4 large panniers

dilemna

Hi All touring cyclists,

What's the thinking from those who've done it, a long tour that is, using 4 large 50 litre -ish rear panniers such as Vaude Aquas or Ortlieb Roller Classics, two on the back and two on the front? I don't think normal lower capacity front panniers will give me enough space for all my gear hence thinking about large ones on the front as well. I currently have a full set of Vaude Aqua panniers front and rear as well as a pair of rear Ortlieb Roller Classics. So am thinking of using both rear Vaude and rear Ortlieb panniers.

The down sides I can think of are reduced ground clearance on the front as the panniers are larger and slightly heavier steering. Although I'll still put the heaviest stuff in the rears and lighter stuff like clothing in the fronts. Heavy stuff such as Trangia stove, tools, parts and books will go in the rear panniers. I plan to do a RTW for about 18 months to 2 years in cold and warm climates, wet and dry so will need to carry a fair range of gear. Or should I consider a Bob Yak trailer? I plan to have a really low gear to winch me up mountain passes. I know less weight is more so to speak but feel I will need more space. I'll be camping where ever the opportunity arises.

Better to learn from others' mistakes than your own. So your experiences good or bitter of loaded bike touring will be gratefully appreciated.

abeez

I would just like to wish you luck, and share my thoughts...

I have never done a tour but plan to at some stage, if I did, I would use a low ali weighted trailer, or even use the double child buggies, and modify it a little, Yes your towing and not ideal, but if no support Vehicle surely it must be the way to go...

good Luck..

alfablue

I think over-heavy fronts can upset the handling too much - I found this when I put the heavy stuff in my regular sized (i.e. front size) Roller Classic fronts. I think you could (should?) tailor your gear to fit in regular fronts, large rears, bar bag, top of rack and 3 bottle cages.

Worth fitting a rear stand.

IMHO Ortlieb construction is better than Vaude equivalent bags.

A trailer means an extra size of wheel/spoke/tyre & tube to cater for. Alternatively there is the Extrawheel trailer that uses the same size as your bike and could be paired with some rack mounted paniers as well if necessary.

dilemna

alfablue wrote:

I think over-heavy fronts can upset the handling too much - I found this when I put the heavy stuff in my regular sized (i.e. front size) Roller Classic fronts. I think you could (should?) tailor your gear to fit in regular fronts, large rears, bar bag, top of rack and 3 bottle cages.

Worth fitting a rear stand.

IMHO Ortlieb construction is better than Vaude equivalent bags.

A trailer means an extra size of wheel/spoke/tyre & tube to cater for. Alternatively there is the Extrawheel trailer that uses the same size as your bike and could be paired with some rack mounted paniers as well if necessary.

Thank you for your reply. I will have my tent and possibly small water carrier on the rear rack between the panniers. I already have a bar bag and bottle cages. Riding the bike with all 4 large panniers doesn't seem much different from when loaded with the smaller fronts packed full. I did have 23C tyre on the front at the time which might have contributed to the steering feeling a bit heavy so maybe with a 35C touring tyre it will feel better. I fitted a new head set last year so the steering is super smooth and very little friction. I guess I will just have to try loading up my panniers with the gear I expect to take and hitting the roads although it might be a little artificial on UK roads. I have ridden many miles with a loaded bike with large rear panniers and smaller front panniers but not with all 4 large. I was hoping some one whose done lots of long distance touring in far off inhospitable places might have some advice. I am sure I have seen some cyclists on CGOAB using rear panniers on their bike's front rack as the panniers have been huge. A trailer really would be a last resort but I anticipate going for a long time. It wouldn't bother me carrying a couple of small size spare tyres (hopefully folding tyres) as they could be stored in the trailer bag itself. I have seen the larger wheel type trailers and I am not a fan I have to say. At £250 one may as well get a proper trailer. Plus the swing arm hitch doesn't look very "robust". To make one of those you only really need a wheel, forks less the steerer then weld on a bar with hitch to attach it to your bike. Then attach a rack to fit panniers to. A mudguard if you want. Simples.

Why do you consider Ortlieb to be better constructed panniers than Vaude? I plan to take my Vaude Aqua panniers with me on my tour as I find them easier to get on with. I was going to buy some more large rear Aqua panniers for the front to give more space than the smaller Aqua front panniers currently give and get rid of the Ortliebs.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

psmiffy

It is not a problem I have toured for years with 46l on the front - having added a netbook to the kit in 2009 I now use a pair of 52 litre - have not noticed any difference




http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/psmiffyontour2009

Hoopdriver

I think a better question might be do you really need to take so much stuff that you require such large panniers? I have done a lot of long expedition-style tours, all over the world, and I also travel a great deal in my work,(I am a travel writer) and I have found that if you have packed for a week, you've packed for a month - and if you are gong for extended periods you can always pick up and discard along the way.

I am no weight weenie - I happily include a few books to read in my kit for example (can't go anywhere without books!) but honestly, I think if you look over your kit you will see a lot of things you won't really need. Taking stuff 'just in case' doesn't really work well on bike trek.

Think it over - do you really need to carry so much?

alfablue

Hi Dilemna

I have done several loaded camping tours but only in Europe and nowhere too wild, so my experience is limited to this. I found the steering was twitchy at low speed when heavily loaded and it did make negotiating rutted paths or town traffic a bit tricky at times. It is like the weight hangs on to one side as you turn then you over-compensate and go the other way when trying to steer around things. At higher speed it isn't an issue, steering movement is then miniscule. I reduced the front load and it improved (my Trangia was lighter in the front than what it replaced!).

I was use a dedicated steel tourer with 700c wheels, tange steel forks with lowrider bosses, a Tubus Tara rack and Marathon Supreme 35's (i.e. what one might consider to be a pretty good setup). I think it could possibly be affected by geometry, my seat / stem setup / weight distribution, or maybe some other issues, so it may be an individual thing. It may also be better with a flat bar bike (I use drops) and perhaps smaller wheels (26's).

pfsmiffy obviously shows it all works fine, maybe flat bars, higher front end and not a lowrider rack add to stability.

As for the Vaude's, I had fancied them and had thought I'd want them but when I finally got to give them a good inspection I thought the Ortliebs looked better made, minor things like nuts and bolts, mouldings etc. The Vaude fastening down each side does look neater but I don't know if it offers the same secure fastening, but probably of no concern. Nothing major between them, they are very similar, but I am reassured by the great reputation the Ortliebs have with expedition tourers.

dilemna

Thanks to every one for your thoughts. I guess I shall just have to try a few long rides and short tours with large panniers on all 4 corners and see how I get on. I guess 35C tyres are a must to help spread the load on the road and offer a more forgiving ride and also a necessity for stability on unpaved roads / tracks with a load.

I feel I'm fairly good at not taking too much, but I don't want to be caught short or stuck in the middle of nowhere. I also want to start off with some spare capacity in the panniers so when necessary I can carry several days food and water.

Thanks again to everyone for your thoughts.

dilemna

psmiffy wrote:

It is not a problem I have toured for years with 46l on the front - having added a netbook to the kit in 2009 I now use a pair of 52 litre - have not noticed any difference




http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/psmiffyontour2009

psmiffy - What front rack do you use? Is it a Jand or Old Man Mountain? It looks just the ticket as there is still reasonable ground clearance beneath the front panniers even with what look like the large Altura Orkney panniers you have on the front. I don't think it is a Tubus low loader as I cannot see the distinctive cross hoop over the front tyre. I guess with one of these ground clearance would not be sufficient? You have an impressive amount of luggage on the rear of your bike .

I think 4 large panniers and bar bag would mean no trailer.

pneumatic

I have toured across Europe with 4 panniers (Ortlieb's regular set up, i.e.. front ones on the front). Handling can be an issue, as mentioned above. We also found that we had to balance the weight at the front to stop wheel wobble on descents.

Once you are up and rolling, the extra load doesn't seem an issue; you just get used to it. However, my mate did fall off his bike when he tried to ride it unladen!! He said he couldn't control it!!

The second time we went across Europe, we did a serious kit audit and managed to fit everything we needed into two panniers, bar bag and rack bag each. I reckon the bike was much easier to handle.

If I were touring the globe, I would probably look into using the postal service as well as the bike for transferring my gear. Having read a lot of books on the subject, that seems to be what the adventurers do. For example, if you are crossing Siberia and heading for Papua New Guinea, or going from Tibet to Istanbul, you are going to need different kit for the relevant climates. Having periodic kit changover seems to be the way to do it.

psmiffy

dilemna wrote:

psmiffy - What front rack do you use?

It is a Nitto rack that I got from Rivendale

Front panniers are tidal - if I got rid of the consumables - food - coffee and sugar-toilet paper - washing up liquid etc they would be only half full

Hoopdriver

Truly - I really think paring down your load is by far the better idea that trying to see how big a pannier you can fit on your front rack. I have done a lot of remote area expedition touring and honestly my bike was never anywhere near as laden as the one in that photo.

psmiffy

Hoopdriver wrote:

Truly - I really think paring down your load is by far the better idea that trying to see how big a pannier you can fit on your front rack.

I am not sure that "paring" down the load would be better - I am happy with it - if it is not broke then there is nothing to fix

dilemna

Hoopdriver wrote:

Truly - I really think paring down your load is by far the better idea that trying to see how big a pannier you can fit on your front rack. I have done a lot of remote area expedition touring and honestly my bike was never anywhere near as laden as the one in that photo.

How can you tell how heavy psmiffy's bike's load is just by looking at it :? ?

If he's happy with his bike and gear that he carries surely that is all that counts?

Hoopdriver

Of course - it is entirely his prerogative to carry as much weight as he likes. I once met a cyclist who was carrying a guitar and had a cast iron skillet and seemed perfectly content, but I think you will also find that by travelling lighter you reduce the strain on yourself and on your bike. Except for on this thread, I've never actually heard anyone argue in support of carrying MORE gear simply because it is possible to do so.

Of course, as you say, there is no telling how heavy his load really is - it may be full of helium balloons, but I doubt it.

If you're happy carrying it - then by all means, go for it. I was just offering a suggestion, based on many thousands of miles of remote area touring experience that you might be happier still if you were not carrying so much.

psmiffy

Hoopdriver wrote:

Except for on this thread, I've never actually heard anyone argue in support of carrying MORE gear simply because it is possible to do so.

Probably because we do not spend a lot of time on gear threads discussing the optimum number of holes to drill in a titanium spoon .

Hoopdriver wrote:

Of course, as you say, there is no telling how heavy his load really is - it may be full of helium balloons, but I doubt it.

I can assure you there are no helium balloons – but enough that I remain, dry, warm and well fed at the end of the day in the practically any circumstances – I spend at least as much time camped at the end of a days cycling and I am after all on holiday.

Hoopdriver wrote:

If you're happy carrying it - then by all means, go for it. I was just offering a suggestion, based on many thousands of miles of remote area touring experience that you might be happier still if you were not carrying so much.

I have never been anywhere particularly remote – but I have done a few tours and happily carted the whole lot tens of thousands of miles around Europe - compared to the majority of long distance tourers I have met on the road in Europe my load is not particulaly unusual– 8)

Hoopdriver

Sigh

I don't even own a titanium spoon, let alone drill holes in one, and in fact usually cary a couple of paperbacks to read trailside - anathema to a weight weenie. After cycling solo across the Great Sandy Desert in Australia, and spending nine months cycling through the bush and having to carry 23 litres of water for survival's sake, I don't fuss much about the odd gram or pound. But neither do I go courting them either.

Everyone has their own style. There is no right or wrong on these things. I happen to think you're nuts carrying so much on a tour of Europe, but you're happy and that's what matters.

Happy trails.

Waderider

I tour quite a lot (maybe a month a year for the last twenty years), and only go to four panniers when purposefully carrying luxuries or extras like hillwalking kit for days off the bike.

My front panniers are 15 litres each and my rear panniers are 25 litres each. I'd suggest that you either have a lot of cheap bulky kit or are wanting to take too much.

If it's the former, spend your money on lighter kit, not panniers. If it's the latter, take less. You're in danger of sullying your tour by taking too much.

Hoopdriver

I'd save your breath, Waderider.

I've tried saying the same thing, but clearly we don't know what we are talking about judging by the response.

I've toured all over the world, on every continent, and, like you, go to four panniers only if I have to - in my case because I've had to carry extra provisions in the desert. Carrying that much in Europe is just mad, and wanting to figure out a way to increase the size of your panniers so you can carry even more is madder still.

To each his own, I guess....

boblo

Happen to agree with the 'less is more' mantra. When tandem touring we use a pair of 36's at the front and 54's rear. Total of 90 litres for two people and our load includes camping gear, cooking gear, food, spare clothes, tools, bike spares etc. Solo, I just take the 54's.

Long distances over multi weeks/months are hard enough anyway without adding to your burden. Yes you can move extra weight but it just reduces the enjoyment and you find youself getting tired/fed up/frustrated when perhaps you wouldn't if you had less.

We are pretty ruthless when packing. We each have our 'stuff' as well as common gear. Before packing, we go though each others personal stuff critiqueing what's there... Makes for a fun time in our house :-) Also, after each trip, we look at what we took, what was used and what wasn't. This allows us to be even more ruthless and trim further weight in future.

Bit anal maybe but extra weight is definitely not your friend.

pneumatic

I take great pleasure in travelling light; for me it gives me freedom from having to bother with all the cr@p we accumulate around us at home.

However, many people close to me think I am just weird and obsessed.

After all, only a tramp would travel without several changes of clothes, hair straighteners and a whole lot of things that you might just need.

Which is exactly the point, except that I prefer the term "gentleman of the road"!

dilemna

Hoopdriver wrote:

I'd save your breath, Waderider.

I've tried saying the same thing, but clearly we don't know what we are talking about judging by the response.

I've toured all over the world, on every continent, and, like you, go to four panniers only if I have to - in my case because I've had to carry extra provisions in the desert. Carrying that much in Europe is just mad, and wanting to figure out a way to increase the size of your panniers so you can carry even more is madder still.

To each his own, I guess....

Did you ever bump in to Jim Madder Than Mad McMaddest on your tour? That guy could move mountains :shock: .

How did you manage with only 23 litres of water riding through the Great Sandy desert and bush in Australia? Did you have a support vehicle nearby?

Hoopdriver

No support - totally solo. Had to drink sparingly. Rode from about 5am to about 10am or 11am, when it was just too hot to move, then made a day camp and laid low in the shade until about four and rode on into the evening. Made about 100 miles a day. Called in at a few cattle stations and Aborigine communities to replenish water where I could. It was pretty tough going - but totally worth it.

Bodhbh

On the subject of loading. Couple of years back I cycled down to my mates in Karlsrule, Germany. It was only a week, but luggage was 4 panniers, a barbag, and a 40 odd litre ortlieb rolltop pack. Luxury items included full civies w/jeans, doc martens, and a ghettoblaster. I was much fitter then and wouldn't load like that again (always take a pair of jeans for the pub, but dockers and stereo can stay at home) but it didn't do me any harm at the time!

On top of that the front panniers got filled with Belgian beer on the way thru and that got lugged 250 miles to my mates as an arrival present. tbh they weighted a ton, but if anythign seems to improve the handling with a bit of weight up-front (MTB with rigid forks, OMM lowrider rack, flat bars, fat marathon tyres). Suppose proof is in the pudding, jsut load the small panniers up with heavy stuff and see how it feels.

dilemna

Hi Bodhbh, What a few decades of experience and hindsight brings . I'm old enough to wish I was a little younger but not ready to slip off this earth just yet. My post is about using two rear panniers for the front as well as on the rear. Obviously this allows one to carry more gear, but not necessaily heavy items such as crates of beer (I don't drink alcohol) but can see the temptation if one does. I suppose the other heavy items one can talk oneself into carrying too much of are books, spares and tools and perhaps camera gear. I fortunately won't be packing DM boots as I don't own any however I have a robust pair of hiking boots ......