The Bog of Cannock Dog

christurbo

A few of us hit the chase today [ for some off piste singletrack ] and when all done we jumped onto the tail end of the dog from the caravan park. What a nightmare! The track was a river of mud, almost unrideable.

I think that it's going to take many months of a dry period and hard work from trailbuilders to get it back to standard. What a shame.

I am going to stick to the unknown trails!

MountainMonster

Mud that is almost unridable is much more fun though!

Tom BB

Same as you did Chris, I did mainly off piste trails-couldn't believe Follow The Dag....think I did section 10-12......stopping pedalling meant stopping moving!

Shame about the trails although I dont really ride them that often due to the traffic on there

bails87

MountainMonster wrote:

Mud that is almost unridable is much more fun though!

No it's bloody not!



Every revolution of the wheel jammed a fist sized lump of mud against the fork arch.
Both tyres were completely smooth due to all the mud. So the back spun and the front just slid downhill, whichever way that was.

Andy B

There's a little bit of mud up here too

note how the front & rear mech, chainrings and the brakes all blend seamlessly into the background....



23.7 mile ride and 6lbs of mud gained on the bike

slowslowslow

Had the same when we tried it last week. No fun at all.

Controversial idea- should riders leave it alone for a few weeks so it can dry out and get sorted. Get the feeling the more it is ridden the worse it will get and the less chance to recover.........

Alex

If riders had any respect for our trails at all, they'd turn around and go home, or simply not go to cannock at all after a thaw.

The trails are in a dreadful state because everyone thinks it's some sort of public service that they can use whenever without worrying what they're doing to them.

Newsflash: Trails are still trails, whoever built them and they need respecting, not trashing by inconsiderate riders who ride at the very worst times.

Stay away from cannock for a few weeks. The Monkey and Dog are pretty ruined and you won't enjoy yourself unless or one of the twattish mudpluggers who have no concept of the damage they're doing.

tlw1

Alex wrote:

If riders had any respect for our trails at all, they'd turn around and go home, or simply not go to cannock at all after a thaw.

The trails are in a dreadful state because everyone thinks it's some sort of public service that they can use whenever without worrying what they're doing to them.

Newsflash: Trails are still trails, whoever built them and they need respecting, not trashing by inconsiderate riders who ride at the very worst times.

Stay away from cannock for a few weeks. The Monkey and Dog are pretty ruined and you won't enjoy yourself unless or one of the foolish mudpluggers who have no concept of the damage they're doing.

No problem - appreciate all the work you guys do

coolboarder

Went to Cannock yesterday and rode the full circuit and omg. Such a shame the state its in. This is my local trail centre which we love to ride but this place perhaps needs to be avoided atm. As someone said, its like riding in liquid concrete in places. Its going to take weeks to dry out. The majority is simply a mudfest. I think emergency plans need to be put in place for the future of the centre. Alternative sections need to be put in place and even more fire road if they have to. The thing is, its going to get a lot worse before things improve. The liquid mud will get thicker and more gloopy as it drys making it even harder to ride.

I dont regret going yesterday because we had a good hard sweaty ride. Your handling skills will improve but your legs are going to burn to keep momentom going and you aint gonna get the downhill speeds we all love. Also your gears are gonna jump like fook clogged up with mud.

We wont be going back untill things have improved. All the best bits are shagged especially those fast down hills and the lovely berms and rollers.

I guess theres no simple solution here, we cant control the weather. The ground doesnt seem to drain all that well so its going to be a while before its anything like what we experienced back in the summer I dont know how other centres have been affected by the weather but Cannock will be no go for us atm which is a crying shame after all the hard work the trail builders put into giving us all this awesome ride.

These are mine and my sone bikes after the ride :shock:

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Andy B

Alex no trails were harmed on my ride, only bridleways already churned up by horses

slowslowslow

Likewise, we got on at Tackeroo and got off after the berms.

I feel sorry for the trailbuilders. There has been some brilliant work done there and it must be depressing to see it in that state.

Rest assured I will only be doing natural trails for a goods while to let it improve. But I supposwe many will have little consideration and ride it simply because they can........

Its when local knowledge of what else is available around other areas of the chase pays dividends.

Stu 74

Alex wrote:

If riders had any respect for our trails at all, they'd turn around and go home, or simply not go to cannock at all after a thaw.

The trails are in a dreadful state because everyone thinks it's some sort of public service that they can use whenever without worrying what they're doing to them.

Newsflash: Trails are still trails, whoever built them and they need respecting, not trashing by inconsiderate riders who ride at the very worst times.

Stay away from cannock for a few weeks. The Monkey and Dog are pretty ruined and you won't enjoy yourself unless or one of the foolish mudpluggers who have no concept of the damage they're doing.

Dear Alex,

I went there for the first time the other day. If I knew what I was in for there is no way I would have driven for 1 1/2 hours to ride in that mess. Upon arrival, if I knew what I was in for I would have gladly turned back.

Instead, I wasted one of the few days riding that I had this break and now have to strip down my bike to clean out all of the sand in the drivetrain, bottom bracket and suspension pivots. :x

I have ridden Llandegla, Penmachno, Coed Y Brenin and the Marin trail after a thaw and have never seen anything that even comes close to the mess at Cannock Chase.

I couldn't see any info on the website suggesting that the trail should be avoided and there were no signs at the trail head or anywhere else that I could see. :?

Perhaps the trail owners should close the trail or at least communicate to people that the trail should be avoided. That would make both of us happy

Tom BB

Stu 74 wrote:

I have ridden Llandegla, Penmachno, Coed Y Brenin and the Marin trail after a thaw and have never seen anything that even comes close to the mess at Cannock Chase.

I couldn't see any info on the website suggesting that the trail should be avoided and there were no signs at the trail head or anywhere else that I could see. :?

Perhaps the trail owners should close the trail or at least communicate to people that the trail should be avoided. That would make both of us happy

The trails at Cannock get a thousand times more 'riders' skidding around them than any of the places you mentioned, hence the awful conditions that are the result.

I agree, some info should be up on the chasetrails site to warn of the conditions, and maybe some sections should be closed. However, hardly anybody ever takes any notice of closures so I can see why they haven't done so yet.....as for them being the 'owners' though, nope-FC are the owners, the chasetrails guys are just a group of volunteers who give up their own riding time etc to build the trails for muppets to destroy.

Alex's post reads abit strong, but I really do sympathise with all the trail builders when I see all the morons that populate the way marked trails at Cannock blocking entrances/exits, skid their 100 inch travel 'rigs' and generally feck up the trails.

Stevo_666

Andy B wrote:

There's a little bit of mud up here too

note how the front & rear mech, chainrings and the brakes all blend seamlessly into the background....



23.7 mile ride and 6lbs of mud gained on the bike

Mud like this is nature's way of telling us to naff off and go skiing/snowboarding.

coolboarder

Tom BB wrote:

I agree, some info should be up on the chasetrails site to warn of the conditions, and maybe some sections should be closed.

However, hardly anybody ever takes any notice of closures so I can see why they haven't done so yet....

Right, Wrong.

Tom, your bang on mate, better notice should be given. There was nothing online that i saw and no signs up any where on the car park suggesting the usual trail shouldn`t be riden. I drove just under an hour to Cannock Sunday and on arival had no idea it was going to be so bad. Theres no way i would have gone knowing what i know now.

But you`re wrong saying hardly any body takes notice off closed sections. Ive probably riden the full circuit 20 times and have never seen anyone disregarding closed section notices! OK you do get the odd bone head but the majority of the cannock riders shouldnt be tared with the same brush.

Im gutted the state its in atm and will avoid ftd & mt unless alternative sections are put in place but imo, and as hard this is to say, perhaps the whole trail need closing to recover? As i mentioned above i reckon things are going to get a lot worse before they get better.

There surley must be alternative tracks & fire roads we could use so visitors could still have a descent bike ride. Could the chain slapper be re opened for a while? We dont all know Cannock well enough to have have a good ride away from the usual trail so suggestions would be appreciated by many i guess!

christurbo

Go and explore, its what we locals have done.

christurbo

Go and explore, its what we locals have done.

The Northern Monkey

problem with cannock is 2 things...

1) the ground is poor to start off with. When I went last summer, there was so much dust it was like riding on corn flour. That corn flour has now had a dose of water and has turned into gloop.

2) there seems to be little or no communication between the builders/trailcenter/riders.

coolboarder

christurbo wrote:

Go and explore, its what we locals have done.

fair enough dude but i heard you first time

Tom BB

coolboarder wrote:

But you`re wrong saying hardly any body takes notice off closed sections. Ive probably riden the full circuit 20 times and have never seen anyone disregarding closed section notices! OK you do get the odd bone head but the majority of the cannock riders shouldnt be tared with the same brush.

Trust me on this one......plenty of people disregard the trail closures! I'm up the chase at least twice a week normally (apart from when its too cold :shock: ). I see plenty of people ignoring trail diversions, tape to signal that sections are closed laying on the floor, and brash moved out of the way. I'm not a member of chasetrails or a helper on the build days, but I have met a number of the guys....... lots of the MT was already fecked by the time it was opened due to people riding it before it was finished.....its probably only a small minority, but with so many riders at Cannock it is still alot of riders who go there and act like tools.

Alex

Just to make one thing clear:

The opinion of myself does not necessarily reflect that of other trailbuilders, and the view of the trailbuilders may not necessarily reflect that of those managing the trail, ie the Forestry Commission.

IMO, it should be closed for a few weeks, with large pointy notices at the trailhead and on websites telling people to go to places where the trail's made of rock not sand and gravel.

However, the forestry are unlikely to be willing to sacrifice the earnings, and quite frankly, riders did £20K worth of damage to the Monkey Trail last winter, whilst it was closed. I doubt we'll be able to stop ten times that number of riders ignoring the fact that the trail's not going to be ridable next time they want to follow signposts.

tsenior

"I have ridden Llandegla, Penmachno, Coed Y Brenin and the Marin trail after a thaw and have never seen anything that even comes close to the mess at Cannock Chase."

:roll:

as alex says its down to the underlying geology, think about what mateiral you will be riding over and what the weathers been like before you decide where to go.

there's clay trails i'll only ride after a week of dry weather OR a few days of hard frost, its fun (sort of) in the gloop but only up to a point.

stumpyjon

AT the risk of sounding a bit controversial it does rather sound like underlying construction issues as much as riders. I've come to the conclusion that if you build trails people will ride them regardless of cosure notices or conditions. There's a lot more to sustainable trail building than clearing brash and creating a line. Drainage is vital as is an amoured surface if it's going to be heavily used. On going maintenance is also vital. Riders are just a fact of nature, you're not going to be able to control them (we've tried and failed), you just have to build with an understanding of the sorts of things people will do like drag their back wheel down a slope, cut corners, ride through a bog rather than over a slightly technical rock garden, ride around a bog making it even bigger.

It's life, get on with it. I've learnt the hard way but hopefully the experiences of the last eighteen months will result in better quality trails.

tsenior

I get what you mean, and sort of agree with you both: the question is does the construction of the trail dicate the ammount of traffic or vice versa?

in soft superficial deposits you could build deep, method compacted granular roads which would take loads of traffic in any weather........but then why not tarmac the top

i think there is a balance to be had: if we want trails that feel natural then riders should avoid during times when erosion will be particularly pronounced.

alternatively if riders want to ride in all weathers then it'll have to be a more engineered trail (this is not aways a bad thing btw, fast hardpack, armoured rock sections, northshore over swampy bits. all have their place).

i should caveat that the only building i do is some very low-key informal maintinance on local trails i use very regulalry

.blitz

I went round the new trails on that Friday night in April before they officially opened and although it was a sublime experience and I was absoultely gaga about having such an ace trail on my doorstep, a few other riders on the night commented that it wouldn't last.

The Chase is basically a dried up prehistoric riverbed. The sand and pebbles aren't some kind of top layer, that is the Chase.

The sections that have been dug into the contours have lasted well but the sections that were basically laid down on top of the ground have suffered the worst. Of course it's easy to criticise but with hindsight, the writing was on the wall in early Summer when the first braking bumps and craters started to appear; gloriously technical singletrack within an hour's drive for 7 milion people was never going to last.

The last time I rode the official trails was after the first snowfall in December and the subsequent thaw, and even then they were all cut up. I can only imagine what they're like now.

Flax1980

for the sake of the trail and my legs I won't go on them till they are back to a decent condition. they've done a bloody good job up there with what they got in my opinion. if I do venture over I'll just explore the fire roads for shits and giggles. would be good to see more of it than just the trails.

Briggo

stumpyjon wrote:

AT the risk of sounding a bit controversial it does rather sound like underlying construction issues as much as riders. I've come to the conclusion that if you build trails people will ride them regardless of cosure notices or conditions. There's a lot more to sustainable trail building than clearing brash and creating a line. Drainage is vital as is an amoured surface if it's going to be heavily used. On going maintenance is also vital. Riders are just a fact of nature, you're not going to be able to control them (we've tried and failed), you just have to build with an understanding of the sorts of things people will do like drag their back wheel down a slope, cut corners, ride through a bog rather than over a slightly technical rock garden, ride around a bog making it even bigger.

It's life, get on with it. I've learnt the hard way but hopefully the experiences of the last eighteen months will result in better quality trails.

After experiencing Cannock, and comparing it to other trail centres around the UK I've ridden I can totally agree with this in terms of the armouring and trail construction.

Such a shame because Cannock ftd/monkey are very awesome trails.

Alex

So you're saying that if we build a ditch, it'll fill up with water? Inspired insight there.

The problem has *NOTHING* to do with drainage. In a hard frost, the ground heaves. This is what causes potholes in tarmac/concrete. Our trails are made of sand and gravel. This is because Cannock is made of Sand and Gravel. Sand and gravel is unfortunately particularly susceptible to frost heave. It's fine when wet, but frost really does turn it to jelly.

We can't bring in 20,000 tonne of crushed granite to surface the trail like at the welsh trail centres.

The whole trail is build with a 5 degree outslope, as IMBA recommend, and the whole thing is above the surrounding ground level. It's never a ditch.

In areas where the surface has to be imported or dug up instead of cut in, the surface is over a foot thick and twice as wide as the trail itself to give a good footprint.

Cannock is not a victim of poor planning, but of geology and visitor numbers.

Briggo

The cause of potholes is due to lack of drainage, water getting in gaps and cracks, freezing which expands it and causes the heave effect by cracking open the roads.

If the roads were drained it wouldn't happen as the water wouldn't be able to collect and freeze.

Anyway stop taking it personally, Cannock like many others is subject to crap soil type and lack of funding to properly armour it all, its not your fault, we're not saying you did a p*ss poor job of building it, its a very good trail. You worked as best you could with the tools you had to hand its just unfortunate they arn't sufficient enough to cope with the demand and weather.

stumpyjon

Alex, you make some pretty valid points and it's not always desireable to bring in exotic materials (or at least ones not found locally). I beg to differ over the issue of drainage though, if water pools or flows over a trail it does cause significant damage in conjunction with heavy use.

We tried to use local materials on some of the trails at Gisburn, materials quarried and crushed on site. The trrouble was crushed gritstone goes very sandy and sandy substrates wash out. We had to fall back to top surfacing with imported limestone over a carefully laid bed of walling stone (which are lucky to have in abundance in the forest, a legacy of the sites farming past). Initially it is a little sanitised but once the limestone layer beds in, dulls down and some of the rock sub layer pokes through it does feel a lot more natural.

As I said I've learnt a lot over the last 18 months, initially I got very angry with 'idiots' who cut corners, rode around obstacles and dragged their brakes. It took a while for me to accept that it was going to happen and if I wanted the trails to be more sustainable then we have to build to take these things into account. One lesson in particular we learnt the hard way which you alluded to was to make sure the initial trail was sufficiently wide so that the final singletrack has shoulders and doesn't get undermined by people riding off the trail.

The unfortunate reality is that heavy use will lead to rapid degredation and yes heavy frost also accelerate the trail wear.

Lowride

STU 74.. can`t believe you opted for Cannock when ure from Wales, you have so much on ure doorstep! I`ve been to five different trail centres in wales and all of them were awesome, Llandegla being the pick of the bunch..

I don`t see FTD and TMT being anywhere near dry until around March. I`m not sure what Cannock is usually like, I`ve only gone over about 2/3 times a year previously before TMT opened. Must have been 5/6 times in 2010. I would`nt have gone if I`d have known what it was like but I don`t check this site very often, will from now on..

Personally I did`nt find it too bad until the split where you go left for the Monkey or right for the Dog. 7 miles in it felt like we`d done 17!