Le terrier HC & friends 2011

young dog

3 routes- 45, 67 and the102 mile Le terrier HC.
Entries open 1st Jan 2011.
To back up our previous claim of the difficulties that will be caused by Le terrier increasing from 77miles to 102miles, I will personally refund the entry fee fee any rider that achieves 20mph. The Fred fastest time is in excess of this.
I am contactable - organiser www.le-terrier.co.uk

nickwill

Just put my entry in for the long route. 6 weeks+ of minimal training due to snow and ice and latterly flu, have made me think twice about entering the Fred Whitton. The extra month to this event might be beneficial. It looks like a really cracking route on some of my favourite roads in the country!

young dog

Good to see your name on the list. Look me up after the ride for a chat, it will be good to hear your opinion of the ride. I am certain no one will ride at 20mph or even 19mph.
I will be looking for everyones view on whether we run the special 2012 Olympic Route or will it be just too difficult.

maddog 2

average or max?

maddog 2

these are my training roads and I can vouch for their quality

young dog

I am afraid its ave speed Maddog.
Is it possible? It is on most sportives.. Lets see who's up for the challenge.

Variance

I live in Scorton and use a lot of these roads.

20mph is impossible in my opinion, however I am fat and slow!

vorsprung

young dog wrote:

I am afraid its ave speed Maddog.
Is it possible? It is on most sportives.. Lets see who's up for the challenge.

Are you suggesting a "trial of speed" on public roads?
Last year you were boasting about how your ride is the toughest, there is none tougher etc
This year you're trying to encourage dangerous riding

nickwill

vorsprung wrote:

young dog wrote:

I am afraid its ave speed Maddog.
Is it possible? It is on most sportives.. Lets see who's up for the challenge.

Are you suggesting a "trial of speed" on public roads?
Last year you were boasting about how your ride is the toughest, there is none tougher etc
This year you're trying to encourage dangerous riding

Where was there any reference to dangerous riding?

Variance

vorsprung wrote:

young dog wrote:

I am afraid its ave speed Maddog.
Is it possible? It is on most sportives.. Lets see who's up for the challenge.

Are you suggesting a "trial of speed" on public roads?
Last year you were boasting about how your ride is the toughest, there is none tougher etc
This year you're trying to encourage dangerous riding

I dont think there is anything wrong with boasting about how tough a ride is, so not sure why you would bother to post that?

As for a trial of speed on public roads, challenging anyone to ride at 20mph average speed is hardly going to attract any Jeremy Clarkson loving speed demons is it?

If you knew the roads that this ride takes in, (which you may do) then you would know that riding at an average of 20mph would not be dangerous, just very difficult given the severity and number of climbs.

young dog

Vorsprung.
I am just trying to make comparisons between our sportive and others. When I first devised the original 77 mile route I was met with all sorts of responses from local riders. From 'your having a laugh' to 'you must be nuts'. Only people that have ridden the 77mile route will be able to explain the difficulties. There is absolutely no rest and the last 12 miles are very difficult, unrelenting, savage, humiliating,destroying, rewarding.
As we have virtually no marketing budget (we give all our profits to local charities) and that we would like to fill all 400 entries, I decided to extend the 77 mile route to 102 miles, as a lot of riders like to ride that covetted distance. This now means that riders get an extra 25 miles of the same quiet roads. The only problem is that riders now have an extra 25 miles to ride before they get to the last 12 mile finish.
The Fred Whitton is ridden in excess of 20mph. This is probably the best known of all the sportives (and rightly so as it is 'the daddy') and quite probably the most challenging until we devised Le terrier HC. I am using the 20mph as a comparison of difficulty. Nobody will manage it. People that have ridden our original 77 mile route, rode it at a slower ave speed than they rode The Fred. I don't know of another difficulty comparison than ave speed, do you?
So, to sum up. We want to fill all the places, so that we can give more money to charity. What we can give is a superb well organised route on very quiet roads with good feed stations, run by cyclistsfor cyclists. Come and see for yourself.

robklancs

yeah the route is super difficult, i have done all the climbs on it, but never in one ride, they are stunning with very little traffic.

Since when was riding at 20mph average dangerous, maybe we should stop time trials, all sportives and chain gangs, get a grip kid.

vorsprung

robklancs wrote:

Since when was riding at 20mph average dangerous, maybe we should stop time trials, all sportives and chain gangs, get a grip kid.

Remind me how you bump your average speed up on a hilly route when you are already on the limit on the climbs? It's an average speed of 20mph, which the organiser is claiming is "impossible"

Time trials are tightly controlled by a central organisation with carefully designed rules designed to reduce risks. Time trials are explictly "races"

Chain gangs are limited numbers of bikes on a training ride, usually by members of local clubs. For the most part they would know their own patch and not want any trouble in their own backyard

Sportives have no controls for risks like time trials as they are not races. The organiser is challenging potential entrants to do the course as fast as possible. But doesn't this ensure that some of the problems of races will happen?

I notice he has now rephrased his orginal "challenge" to do a 20mph average

Is it possible? It is on most sportives.. Lets see who's up for the challenge.

To the less aggressive

I am using the 20mph as a comparison of difficulty. Nobody will manage it.

nickwill

vorsprung wrote:

robklancs wrote:

Since when was riding at 20mph average dangerous, maybe we should stop time trials, all sportives and chain gangs, get a grip kid.

Remind me how you bump your average speed up on a hilly route when you are already on the limit on the climbs? It's an average speed of 20mph, which the organiser is claiming is "impossible"

Time trials are tightly controlled by a central organisation with carefully designed rules designed to reduce risks. Time trials are explictly "races"

Chain gangs are limited numbers of bikes on a training ride, usually by members of local clubs. For the most part they would know their own patch and not want any trouble in their own backyard

Sportives have no controls for risks like time trials as they are not races. The organiser is challenging potential entrants to do the course as fast as possible. But doesn't this ensure that some of the problems of races will happen?

I notice he has now rephrased his orginal "challenge" to do a 20mph average

Is it possible? It is on most sportives.. Lets see who's up for the challenge.

To the less aggressive

I am using the 20mph as a comparison of difficulty. Nobody will manage it.

What are the controls for risks on time trials? AFAIK no permission is needed to hold a time trial. As far as the law is concerned it is not a race. On a constantly hilly route like this there will be lower density of riders on any one stretch of road than on most time trials. Regarding the speed challenge, there are usually only 2 or 3 riders on events like the Fred Whitton who attain anyhing close to a 20 mph average. By definition these are all extremely fit and experienced cyclists (like Rob Jebb or James Dobbin). Riders at this level are likely to be safer at a 20 mph average than most club riders at 15-16 mph.The nature of the event and the fact that it is not high profile means that it is likely to appeal more to experienced riders rather than newcomers to the sport. I really don't understand the aggressive attacks on the organiser of one highly regarded event. A lot of people will get a lot of pleasure from riding the event, and money will be raised for charity. It does seem significant that a lot of attacks on sportives and their organisers seem to come from members of the Audax fraternity. Is it not possible to accept that people want different things from their cycling?

young dog

Vorsprung.
I am sorry that I have to try and clear things up with you, but I will try once more to explain myself.
I thought that you would have picked up on my question 'I don't know of another difficulty comparison ave speed, do you?'
We ended up with this distances of sportive as a lot of riders like to ride 100miles. The result being that the 102mile route is quite possibly the hardest in the country.
All profits go to charity.
Speed is relative. Your slow is another persons fast, but it doesn't make either of you dangerous. Are you asking for a Max Ave Speed that you think is safe?
I think your gripe is my claim of difficulty for our event without knowing anything about the area.
No doubt you will hear about the event on June 5th onwards.
You could always email me as the organiser and I will gladly forward my number to you.

vorsprung

young dog wrote:

Vorsprung.
'I don't know of another difficulty comparison ave speed, do you?'

How about average metres climb per kilometre? Or just the total climb? Or information on the gradients?

I'm sorry I felt the need to be negative about your event. But the way you put it made me think you were encouraging riders to go too fast on a course that must contain some challenging downhill sections.

I must admit that your previous attempt to make this event sound different and interesting also raised my ire with the bizarre suggestion that the route contains HC category climbs, in the UK.

vorsprung

Nickwill wrote:

What are the controls for risks on time trials?

See http://www.cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/Abo ... fault.aspx

AFAIK no permission is needed to hold a time trial. As far as the law is concerned it is not a race.

The law treats races and time trials quite similarly

Section 31 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, as amended by the Road Traffic Act 1991 states:

31(1) A person who promotes or takes part in a race or trial of speed on a public way between cycles is guilty of an offence, unless the race or trial:

(a) is authorised under the Cycle Racing on Highways Regulations 1960, AND

(b) is conducted in accordance with any conditions imposed, by or under regulations under this section.

For a time trial or bicycle race to be authorised, a promoter must give 28 days written notice to the police giving times, dates, routes, start, finish, maximum number taking part, arrangements for marshalling and supervision, and the rules of the competition.

I really don't understand the aggressive attacks on the organiser of one highly regarded event.

My comments are not what I would classify as "aggressive"

It does seem significant that a lot of attacks on sportives and their organisers seem to come from members of the Audax fraternity. Is it not possible to accept that people want different things from their cycling?

Do you suspect a conspiracy by "members of the Audax fraternity"? Everyone wants safe riding on roads. That is the sole purpose of my comments.

young dog

Vorspring.
Thanks for your nice comments. Perhaps your manner could be seen as 'like a dog with a bone'. Perhaps you should join us? Our ride is just like that and that was the reason for it's name.
There is absolutely no offence taken froman Audax viewpoint, we are all cyclists.
Now then, the reason for calling our ride HC, is the ride as a whole (HC - beyond categorisation) and not an individual hill. Our previous 77 mile route was justifiably graded 9/10 for difficulty. This route is at least 2 grades more difficult, but we coudn't rate it 11/10 as that would have been silly.
I am wondering whether we should release our 2012 Le terrier- the Olympian. This is a route that has been on the back burner for the last 18 months and it is a bit harder than our HC route. We would revert back to 2 routes for that year only.

nickwill

vorsprung wrote:

It does seem significant that a lot of attacks on sportives and their organisers seem to come from members of the Audax fraternity. Is it not possible to accept that people want different things from their cycling?

Do you suspect a conspiracy by "members of the Audax fraternity"? Everyone wants safe riding on roads. That is the sole purpose of my comments.

Sorry Vorsprung, that was a bit intemperate of me. I certainly wasn't implying a conspiracy. I certainly don't consider myself one of the 'sportive fraternity', just someone who enjoys riding challenging routes and who rides a few hilly sportives each year. I certainly have no axe to grind with regard to Audax riders or events. As long as people are out on bikes it can only be a good thing.
My understanding re the HC grading of the route is that the event will be exceptionally hard because of the relentless nature of the climbing in the Forest of Bowland. There is hardly a flat section and the terrain between climbs tends to be littered with regular short 25% sections. Add to this the heavy roads and I have had some of my hardest days in the area. I have found that nominal estimates of metres of ascent are a long way from telling the full story.The Dragon Ride has quite high figures for the amount of climbing, but it is an easy event because the climbs are all gradual and take place on wide roads.
I always found the old White Rose Classic harder than the Fred Whitton for the same reason., despite it not having anything to compare with Hardknott and Wrynose. The terrain in the Forest of Bowland is arguably harder than the Yorkshire Dales, so I would expect an even harder day out.
I look forward to June, and a great day out on Le Terrier.

Brian B

I have entered for 102 miles and looking forward to this one.

Nickwill - Did you enter the Fred?

nickwill

No I decided against it. I have a time in mind, and the way this winter has gone made me decide this wasn't going to be the year.
The Terrier will be a nice first hard sportive of the year, and then I can concentrate on the Raid Alpine in July. Are you doing the Fred? Hope to catch up with you at Le Terrier!

Brian B

Hi Nick I am hopefully going to do the Fred if I get in but also doing the lake land loop the month before. Did that last year also and felt it kick started my fitness. Like yourself though have had a bad winter in regards to training coupled with the flu.

Looking forward to the terrier though