Basso

fjellrunner

"I promised Aldo: I'll never cheat again"

Am I missing something? I thought he didn't admit anything except 'attempted doping'. I guess like all the others, he's finally admitting it; Di Luca, Kohl, Landis, Contador, Riis...

Just thought I'd throw that one out there

cooper.michael1

English is his second language!

Why not praise people for coming back and winning clean, instead of on xmas day dragging up a load of doping stuff from 5 years ago.

grimpeur

Exactly, Basso did wrong in the past but why read into what is probably a misunderstanding in translation.

He came back and placed himself under the scrutiny of Sassi who was also coaching his main competitor Evans. Basso should be commended and if anything shows that you can win clean.

dougzz

Since we've pretty much established that testing is flawed in terms of the absolute catching of dopers how do you make statements with any authority about winning clean? It's a brave man that'd stake anything of worth on Basso winning clean.

Why does it matter that it's Xmas day, who cares what day it is?

dave_1

well....if he couldn't keep that basic promise to people who are alive, I doubt he'd be any more likely to when they are dead! The guy is as clever as Lance, Millar and JV...now this Ricco character will talk reformed join them and claim he gives a toss for anyone other than himself. This use of this Italian coach to help clean one's image up makes me sick. At least LA doesn't scam us in that way

blazing_saddles

Dave_1 wrote:

well....if he couldn't keep that basic promise to people who are alive, I doubt he'd be any more likely to when they are dead! The guy is as clever as Lance, Millar and JV...now this Ricco character will talk reformed join them and claim he gives a toss for anyone other than himself. This use of this Italian coach to help clean one's image up makes me sick. At least LA doesn't scam us in that way

Quite right. Using cancer is a far more palatable scam.

SpaceJunk

cooper.michael1 wrote:

English is his second language!

Why not praise people for coming back and winning clean, instead of on xmas day dragging up a load of doping stuff from 5 years ago.

Just a misinterpretation - of course he isn't going to admit to doping. Not now anyway. After all, he was only pinged for his intention to dope.

And since he lied to all and sundry for years about his past dealings. I for one, am are more than happy to forgive him so quickly.

iainf72

This is not new.

He effectively admitted it in and interview in Cyclesport a year and a half ago.

moray_gub

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

well....if he couldn't keep that basic promise to people who are alive, I doubt he'd be any more likely to when they are dead! The guy is as clever as Lance, Millar and JV...now this Ricco character will talk reformed join them and claim he gives a toss for anyone other than himself. This use of this Italian coach to help clean one's image up makes me sick. At least LA doesn't scam us in that way

Quite right. Using cancer is a far more palatable scam.

In what way was his cancer a scam then ? irrc he had cancer beat it end of no scam there.

moray_gub

iainf72 wrote:

This is not new.

He effectively admitted it in and interview in Cyclesport a year and a half ago.

Yep he did i think i posed the same question to you back then.

dulldave

Moray Gub wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

well....if he couldn't keep that basic promise to people who are alive, I doubt he'd be any more likely to when they are dead! The guy is as clever as Lance, Millar and JV...now this Ricco character will talk reformed join them and claim he gives a toss for anyone other than himself. This use of this Italian coach to help clean one's image up makes me sick. At least LA doesn't scam us in that way

Quite right. Using cancer is a far more palatable scam.

In what way was his cancer a scam then ? irrc he had cancer beat it end of no scam there.

I can't see where he's said Lance's cancer was a scam MG. Cancer yes, his cancer no.

blazing_saddles

There you go.
The point being put out there was that using a percieved "clean" trainer was for a PR image cleaning exercise and therefore a dope cheater's scam.

No dispute that LA had cancer, but one of the reasons for his transformation from a reasonable classics rider to the dominant Grand Tour rider, was put down to cancer changing his body shape and muscle composition.

Or is anyone seriously going to argue that LA's cancer hasn't been consistently used as a marketing tool?

Kléber

Of course, Lance is "the guy who beat cancer to win that Tour dee France" for millions, hundreds of millions.

As for Basso, he's copped his ban and is trying to make amends. Yes the "attempt" excuse was terrible (© B Nygaard, I believe) but it was obvious what he was doing. It was Sassi who persuaded Basso to work with him, partly for the training but it had a lot to do with communicating, to show how he is training.

cooper.michael1

From 1995-2006 most of the peloton were on something, who cares, its the way it was but things should move on and from Puerto/Landis onwards the game changed.

For for it being xmas, all i'm saying is that we should look to the future not drag up the past.

moray_gub

Kléber wrote:

Of course, Lance is "the guy who beat cancer to win that Tour dee France" for millions, hundreds of millions.

As for Basso, he's copped his ban and is trying to make amends. Yes the "attempt" excuse was terrible (© B Nygaard, I believe) but it was obvious what he was doing. It was Sassi who persuaded Basso to work with him, partly for the training but it had a lot to do with communicating, to show how he is training.

It may be an unpalatable fact for the bitter lemons amongst you to swallow, but its factually correct to state that Lance is the guy who beat cancer to win the Tour de France............or am i missing something here in that he did not have cancer or he did not win the Tour de France ?

moray_gub

Kléber wrote:

Of course, Lance is "the guy who beat cancer to win that Tour dee France" for millions, hundreds of millions.

As for Basso, he's copped his ban and is trying to make amends. Yes the "attempt" excuse was terrible (© B Nygaard, I believe) but it was obvious what he was doing. It was Sassi who persuaded Basso to work with him, partly for the training but it had a lot to do with communicating, to show how he is training.

As for Basso.........if i am not the same when i come back judge me then he said. 20 months or so on its fair to judge him nowhere near as dominant as when he was juiced up to the eyeballs , draw your own conclusions.

zammmmo

Moray Gub wrote:

As for Basso.........if i am not the same when i come back judge me then he said. 20 months or so on its fair to judge him nowhere near as dominant as when he was juiced up to the eyeballs , draw your own conclusions.

Ok, so he won the Giro by ~2mins instead of ~9mins. I'd still say that's pretty good, and surprising.

Gazzaputt

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

well....if he couldn't keep that basic promise to people who are alive, I doubt he'd be any more likely to when they are dead! The guy is as clever as Lance, Millar and JV...now this Ricco character will talk reformed join them and claim he gives a toss for anyone other than himself. This use of this Italian coach to help clean one's image up makes me sick. At least LA doesn't scam us in that way

Quite right. Using cancer is a far more palatable scam.

Another ill thought quote from you.

moray_gub

zammmmo wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

As for Basso.........if i am not the same when i come back judge me then he said. 20 months or so on its fair to judge him nowhere near as dominant as when he was juiced up to the eyeballs , draw your own conclusions.

Ok, so he won the Giro by ~2mins instead of ~9mins. I'd still say that's pretty good, and surprising.

He said himself if he is not as good when he comes back then he can be judged its quite clear he is nowhere near as good as he was when he was blowing everyone away in 2006, as for this years Giro if Nibs had really wanted it it was his to win.

grimpeur

He is nowhere near as good as he was in 2006, but then again, who is...

He is clearly a talented rider and he probably would have won in 2006 regardless if he was doping or not, albeit without such a ludicrous winning margin.

Seeing him battling with Evans on the Mortirolo this year and clearly suffering made me see him in a different light.

blazing_saddles

Gazzaputt wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

well....if he couldn't keep that basic promise to people who are alive, I doubt he'd be any more likely to when they are dead! The guy is as clever as Lance, Millar and JV...now this Ricco character will talk reformed join them and claim he gives a toss for anyone other than himself. This use of this Italian coach to help clean one's image up makes me sick. At least LA doesn't scam us in that way

Quite right. Using cancer is a far more palatable scam.

Another ill thought quote from you.

Not really.
Just a selective misinterpretation on your part.
I'll assume your pun wasn't intended.

dougzz

cooper.michael1 wrote:

From 1995-2006 most of the peloton were on something, who cares, its the way it was but things should move on and from Puerto/Landis onwards the game changed.

For for it being xmas, all i'm saying is that we should look to the future not drag up the past.

More like 1990 onwards, and I care. I think it does matter, and that unless you expose the lies they just carry on. Personally I'm far from convinced cycling is clean today. The juicing may be to a lower level because detection is better, but lets not kids ourselves that this is yesterday's problem.

I'm not suggesting that you can make complete judgements from results, but just consider in last year's Giro De Luca was pretty full bore yet Menchov beat him, hell of a cyclist that Menchov

Kléber

I think it's true that by the mid-1990s many riders realised what they had to to do. The lack of an EPO test and no haematocrit count meant that most simply had to load up on EPO just to stay in the game.

Personally I think you need to drag up the past where possible in order to understand the present situation and to make things better going forward. It was crisis after scandal after humiliation that made those in cycling wake up and do something to clean up things.

cooper.michael1

dougzz wrote:

cooper.michael1 wrote:

From 1995-2006 most of the peloton were on something, who cares, its the way it was but things should move on and from Puerto/Landis onwards the game changed.

For for it being xmas, all i'm saying is that we should look to the future not drag up the past.

More like 1990 onwards, and I care. I think it does matter, and that unless you expose the lies they just carry on. Personally I'm far from convinced cycling is clean today. The juicing may be to a lower level because detection is better, but lets not kids ourselves that this is yesterday's problem.

I'm not suggesting that you can make complete judgements from results, but just consider in last year's Giro De Luca was pretty full bore yet Menchov beat him, hell of a cyclist that Menchov

Di Luca historically was always a classics rider, so whilst he may have 'developed' via illegal means you cannot say becuase Menchov beat him he is taking substances too, whilst he may be, he is also a considerably better Grand tour rider as well.

All i'm saying is I've enjoyed watching pro cycling for 20 years, I enjoyed it in the 90s , I enjoy it today and drugs have been part of the equation at all points.

So someone like Basso had his first big year at the TdF in 2003, when he won the white jersey. He sees Armstrong on Drugs, Hamilton, Landis, Ullrich, Kloeden, Millar, Heras etc etc etc...that was the culture. To win a GT you virtually had to cheat.

I dont think say someone like Andy Schleck at 22 has entered the same doping arena, that existed in the decade before him.

inkyfingers

cooper.michael1 wrote:

I dont think say someone like Andy Schleck at 22 has entered the same doping arena, that existed in the decade before him.

I'd love to agree, but let's not forget that his brother Frank was the subject of some suspicion due to some rather expensive "training programs" that he bought from a dodgy doctor (i'm sure someone will be along shortly with a link and cross references.

The point i'd make is that we can't just draw a line in the sand and say that before was dirty and after was clean.

frenchfighter

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/6832/ ... oping.aspx

dougzz

cooper.michael1 wrote:

Di Luca historically was always a classics rider, so whilst he may have 'developed' via illegal means you cannot say becuase Menchov beat him he is taking substances too, whilst he may be, he is also a considerably better Grand tour rider as well.

All i'm saying is I've enjoyed watching pro cycling for 20 years, I enjoyed it in the 90s , I enjoy it today and drugs have been part of the equation at all points.

So someone like Basso had his first big year at the TdF in 2003, when he won the white jersey. He sees Armstrong on Drugs, Hamilton, Landis, Ullrich, Kloeden, Millar, Heras etc etc etc...that was the culture. To win a GT you virtually had to cheat.

I dont think say someone like Andy Schleck at 22 has entered the same doping arena, that existed in the decade before him.

Well he beat everyone except Menchov so he was no slouch, he also won the race in 2007, so I don't think you can pretend he wasn't a serious GT rider. I did say it wasn't proof, really just a raised eyebrow observation.

Personally Andy Schleck raises an eyebrow too, and as has been said above we're yet to hear a decent explanation of why his brother thought the best place for a cycle training plan was a Madrid gynaecologist's office.