Unions (Aslef)

chunkytfg

Can I just add my 2p as a LUL member of staff and RMT member but not a dirver I might add.

35 hours a week is fair enough and not exactly part time. okay so it's not a 60 hour week like SWMBO used to work when working in the motor trade but none the less it isnt a 20 hour week is it! Thats proper part time!

43 days annual leave. If you dont actually work a 35 hour week due to rostering constraints and end up working more like 37.5 would you expect to get the hours back somehow? The drivers do in the way of extra days leave. I work an actual 35 hour week and get 34 which includes 8 for bank holidays so not the brilliant amount it first seems.

40k a year! This is the thing everyone seems hell bent on making a big thing about. So now lets take a real look at it. Shift allowance is the main reason for it and again some of you will probably read this and think 'so what!'. So how about looking at shift patterns?

So the average driver will start out on the 'releif' roster which basically means not knowing what you are doing any more than 2 weeks in advance. plus I personally work 2 out of 10 weekends. Drivers work around 5 out of 7!

Their shifts last between 4 and 8 hours meaning to get the required amount of hours in you end up doing over 5 shifts a week! Plus the shifts start at ANY point between the start of traffic(trains running) to about 11pm meaning you can be required to get to work for 4 am somedays which I think you will agree is not likely to be very pleasent!


I doubt what I have said will go in anyway towards convincing you that the strike is justified as TBH recently I have become less convinced by there effectiveness and necessity given the current economical climate! but hopefully it wil igve a sligthyl clearer view as to the life of a driver.

pilot_pete

Well

You can probably guess what I do from my nick.

I resent the comment

It's much like an airline pilot, spends a lot of time on autopilot so you could argue for minimum wage but you'll pay a kings ransom come time to land the thing.

This just shows how little people understand of other people's jobs. The example quoted is oft quoted about my profession; the 'one button does it all'. Really? Let's get some facts;

1. Commercial aeroplanes cannot take off on autopilot, they (some) can land.
2. The pilot still flys the aeroplane when the autopilot is in, it just means that instead of using the stick to make it go where he wants he uses a series of buttons and dials and thumbwheels, so he doesn't just push 'one button' and forget about it.
3. The autopilot is a tool, used to free up mental capacity for the skillful bit which is management and decision making, something that the computers CANNOT do.
4. When the shit hits the fan you pay for my professional knowledge, judgement, training, experience, management and above all skill to get you (and me) safely back on the ground.
5. I have the safety of many hundreds of passengers in my hands and a $50M+ aircraft, the number of possible failures and emergencies far outweigh those of a train, and of course we can't just come to a halt if it is all going wrong.......

I don't know what a tube driver specifically does on a day to day basis, but I would hazard a guess that his wage is pretty reasonable for the tasks demanded of the role. Yes I earn significantly more than that, for some of the reasons stated above. Another being that I am re-tested every six months to prove my skill levels, which take it from me is both stressful and not a walk in the park.

In return I get 42 days leave (which includes Bank Holidays)
I can only take 14 days of this leave in the summer (Apr-Sep)
I work a variable shift pattern, with no set starts or ends, or indeed pattern!
I work 3 out of 4 weekends in the summer, usually 3 out of 4 Saturdays in winter.
I regularly start work between 4 and 6am, and quite often do nights, starting at any time, like 5pm and not getting back until 7am.
People think my hours are minimal (restricted). Restricted yes, but less restrictive than livestock in transit!!!!! I report an hour before departure time, fly a sector with no break (other than a quick pee), then turn the aircraft around over an hour (no break) before flying back again (with no break).
I can work up to 16 1/4 hours in a day.
I can work 7 days without a day off.
I can work up to 55hrs in that 7 day period. Up to 95hrs in 2 weeks, 190 in 4 weeks.
I don't get to see the following month's roster until the 15th of the month before.
AND THE EU ARE TRYING TO HARMONISE DUTY LIMITATIONS FOR PILOTS THROUGHOUT THE EU WHICH WILL BE LESS RESTRICTIVE THAN THE HOURS I CURRENTLY WORK!!!! You still feel safe as an airline passenger? And I work for one of the better airlines!!!!!!!

So hopefully this goes some way to addressing the issues that have been put forward to justify industrial action by the tube drivers. It is a TOUGH economic climate out there and you are not the only ones who have to work bank holidays and not get time off with your kids........

I'm just glad I moved away from that hell hole London..............

PP

StillGoing

Lots of people work shifts and in a lot more stressful occupations than tube drivers and get paid a lot less.
The tube drivers chose their occupation; if they don't like the customers they deal with then leave and do something else. Plenty of others also work bank holidays and like tube drivers get fairly compensated for it. If you've got a year long of rosters, you're one up on most shift workers in the emergency services and the military who often don't know what they're working from one day to the next.
Plenty of other occupations end up with mental scarring as a result of what they've seen or dealt with. You know what the job involves, don't do it if you can't hack the prospect of someone chucking themselves on the rails. Clearly some aren't mentally scarred if they want to be able to continue after an incident. And lets not forget they get compensated heavily if they can't continue driving and do get offered a role in some other area. Fact is the money for what they do is so good they don't want to come off the train.
They're hardly being slave driven are they. 35 hour week and easily over £40k a year. Oh and 40 odd days annual leave plus any bank holidays they don't work.

The manangement and unions are as a bad as each other. Both know where they want to be and where their prepared to negotiate. Stop the posturing and accept that there is no money. There have to be cuts for everyone.

StillGoing

If we're disclosing working conditions:

I work a variable shift pattern over ten weeks comprising of 2 early shifts, 2 late shifts and 2 night shifts followed by four or three days off depending on whether the last day off falls on a Friday or a Saturday when I will work an additional 8 hour shift. It all equates to a 40 hour week before overtime is calculated. Shifts are between 9 and 10 hours long but we can be required to work on overtime before or after a shift without notice if required the first half hour of which we don't get paid for. We can have our days off cancelled with little or no notice and will only be compensated (at the moment) if it is inside five days. The chances of getting the day back are remote. I'm averaging at the moment 60 hours a week throughout my career and this year still have over 100 hours of annual leave to take before end of March, which I am unlikely to succeed in doing because of work commitments. We work most weekends and most bank holidays. Without going into what it is I do, it involves a huge amount of stress. At my grade and length of service, we get 28 days annual leave and a reasonable wage of which we currently pay 11% towards a pension. This is expected to rise to 15%. We work bank holidays unless there is sufficient cover when we will be given it off. If the bank holiday falls on our day off, we will be given a day off in leiu. If we work the bank holiday we do get paid double time for the hours worked (8) and get 1 or 2 hours deducted from our annual leave entitlement. I can be required to work 8 days in a row and am entitled to 11 hours between shifts including travelling time before I have to be compensated for it. We invariably start up to an hour early and finish up to an hour later than rostered without claiming for it. A meal break is what you can eat whilst doing your work.

We can't strike and we wouldn't want to. Colleagues are being laid off in my line of work with huge budget cuts. Bleating and moaning about pay and conditions when there are people looking at losing their livelihood, their home etc is somehow dirty and obscene. There are people doing worse jobs than me and a damn sight worse than tube drivers so I have no support for ASLEF.

MattC59

I'll just add my tuppence worth as well, with no diosrespect to Chunkytfg........

chunkytfg wrote:

Can I just add my 2p as a LUL member of staff and RMT member but not a dirver I might add.

43 days annual leave. If you dont actually work a 35 hour week due to rostering constraints and end up working more like 37.5 would you expect to get the hours back somehow? The drivers do in the way of extra days leave. I work an actual 35 hour week and get 34 which includes 8 for bank holidays so not the brilliant amount it first seems.

40k a year! This is the thing everyone seems hell bent on making a big thing about. So now lets take a real look at it. Shift allowance is the main reason for it and again some of you will probably read this and think 'so what!'. So how about looking at shift patterns?

So the average driver will start out on the 'releif' roster which basically means not knowing what you are doing any more than 2 weeks in advance. plus I personally work 2 out of 10 weekends. Drivers work around 5 out of 7!

Their shifts last between 4 and 8 hours meaning to get the required amount of hours in you end up doing over 5 shifts a week! Plus the shifts start at ANY point between the start of traffic(trains running) to about 11pm meaning you can be required to get to work for 4 am somedays which I think you will agree is not likely to be very pleasent!

A 35hr week, so I assume 5x 8hr shifts, with an hour for lunch each day ?
That would be nice !! My contracted hours are 9-5, with an hour for lunch. In reality, I'm at my desk by about 7:45am and finish at about 6pm. That doesn't include work I may need to do in the evenings and any travelling time (eg. getting up at 4am to go to the airport, arriving with the client for 8am, catching the last flight home at 6pm and getting home at about 10pm.) Do I get any extra pay or can I down tools at the end of my alotted hours ? Can I f*ck !!!!

34 days holiday including 8 for bank holidays ? Well that staks up pretty well against my 32 days, including bank holidays

Relief rosta, not knowing wht you're doing more than 2 weeks in advance ? You know you're going to work though don't you ?

Shifts lasting between 4 and 8 hours ...... oooh, I'd love a working day like that.
Having to do 5 shifts per week. Doesn't everyone ?

Starting work at 4am, not very nice............ yep, familiar with that, but it's part of my job. I get paid for it and more importantly, I knew about it when I took the job.

So, basically, a tube driver works less hours than I do, gets more money than I do, gets more holiday than I do, and is now using blackmail to improve on this.
Inconveniences due to shift patterns etc are more than compensated for in the salary and the holiday allowance.

Can you see why I have f*ck all sympathy ?

I get paid reasonably well for the job that I do in the market that I operate in.
Any inconveniences are generally accounted for.
No disrespect to any tube drivers out there, but my job requires a lot more intelligence and involves a lot more than driving a train.

If the drivers dont like their job, fine, go and get another one where you get the package and conditions that they want, just like people working in the private sector do.

Oh yeah, such jobs either don't exist or need more experience or qualifications.

Jez mon

philthy3 wrote:

If we're disclosing working conditions:

I work a variable shift pattern over ten weeks comprising of 2 early shifts, 2 late shifts and 2 night shifts followed by four or three days off depending on whether the last day off falls on a Friday or a Saturday when I will work an additional 8 hour shift. It all equates to a 40 hour week before overtime is calculated. Shifts are between 9 and 10 hours long but we can be required to work on overtime before or after a shift without notice if required the first half hour of which we don't get paid for. We can have our days off cancelled with little or no notice and will only be compensated (at the moment) if it is inside five days. The chances of getting the day back are remote. I'm averaging at the moment 60 hours a week throughout my career and this year still have over 100 hours of annual leave to take before end of March, which I am unlikely to succeed in doing because of work commitments. We work most weekends and most bank holidays. Without going into what it is I do, it involves a huge amount of stress. At my grade and length of service, we get 28 days annual leave and a reasonable wage of which we currently pay 11% towards a pension. This is expected to rise to 15%. We work bank holidays unless there is sufficient cover when we will be given it off. If the bank holiday falls on our day off, we will be given a day off in leiu. If we work the bank holiday we do get paid double time for the hours worked (8) and get 1 or 2 hours deducted from our annual leave entitlement. I can be required to work 8 days in a row and am entitled to 11 hours between shifts including travelling time before I have to be compensated for it. We invariably start up to an hour early and finish up to an hour later than rostered without claiming for it. A meal break is what you can eat whilst doing your work.

We can't strike and we wouldn't want to. Colleagues are being laid off in my line of work with huge budget cuts. Bleating and moaning about pay and conditions when there are people looking at losing their livelihood, their home etc is somehow dirty and obscene. There are people doing worse jobs than me and a damn sight worse than tube drivers so I have no support for ASLEF.

I would guess you are in one of the emergency services?

My position, 38 hrs a week, generally work more than that most weeks, with no overtime.

Occasional 12hr night shifts from 7 til 7

32 days holiday a year

A salary which is less than half of what a tube driver earns

A job which is very challenging, but mostly stress free, apart from when I am in charge of doing tests which could blow up > 1 million worth of equipment

Tbh whilst tube drivers conditions sound difficult, they do get some rather handsome rewards...

rick_chasey

Christ guys, it's not a competition of who has the toughest job!

I've never understood the 'my life/job is harder than everyone elses' competition.


It's not particularly big or clever to work a sh!t job with sh!t hours and sh!t pay. Sure, some are jobs that are considered to be worthy jobs, but ultimately a job's a job. If it's as bad as you all claim then you should look into changing career. If, however, you just want to make out you're somehow harder or tougher because you put up with a tougher job with worse pay, then you're just being childish.


If people think the tube driving gig is a good one, then why not apply, especially if it's so much more cushty than the job you have? If you don't, you need to think to yourself why you wouldn't take it.

StillGoing

If you read the posts we aren't moaning. We're pointing out that the tube drivers have little or nothing to complain about and their timing in the middle of a recession when everyone is facing cuts is taking the wee wee. I'll bet anyone who is about to be or has been made redundant in the financial crisis would swap places with them in an instant as well as anyone who is at risk or in a truly poorly paid job..

rick_chasey

philthy3 wrote:

If you read the posts we aren't moaning. We're pointing out that the tube drivers have little or nothing to complain about and their timing in the middle of a recession when everyone is facing cuts is taking the wee wee. I'll bet anyone who is about to be or has been made redundant in the financial crisis would swap places with them in an instant as well as anyone who is at risk or in a truly poorly paid job..

I don't buy the 'we're all in this together' notion. It's a good sell to justify the public spending cuts the current gov't wants to make. No-one's in it together. It's a bloody jungle out there and no-one's looking out for anyone else other than #1. That's the dichotomy of the Conservative discourse right now.

The tube driver's position is the upside to unionism. Those in the private sector who complain they have no job protection or security are partly in that position becasue they are not in a collective action position.

I'm not necessarily advocating strike action, but this is why it exists - so people can have jobs that improve the quality of their lives, rather than reducing it.

Frank the tank

The fact of the matter is, employers will endevour to pay as little as possible for the skill required to do the task. Employees will endevour to get the best t's&c's as possible.I and my colleagues have just spent the best part of a year trying to secure our jobs and have (with heavy union involvement) succeeded in doing so albeit with not such good Ts&Cs. Not totally overjoyed but I was happy to retain my job.

This week the company have offered the workforce in another part of the factory £300/shift to work five days between christmas/new year. Best of luck to them.

I can't understand the mentality of ordinary working men coming on here and slagging off other workers because they're trying to get a better deal for themselves. Yes it will cause inconvenience but I've said many times no-one takes industrial/strike action lightly especially in the current climate.

As for skills required, I've said to various gaffers "It's not that I'm skilled, it's just everything I do is quick and simple". Usually when due to pressure of production they've given a task to someone else who have then proceeded to foul up.

chunkytfg

Again no disrespect but I feel the need to pick this apart a touch!

MattC59 wrote:

I'll just add my tuppence worth as well, with no diosrespect to Chunkytfg........



A 35hr week, so I assume 5x 8hr shifts, with an hour for lunch each day ?
That would be nice !! My contracted hours are 9-5, with an hour for lunch. In reality, I'm at my desk by about 7:45am and finish at about 6pm. That doesn't include work I may need to do in the evenings and any travelling time (eg. getting up at 4am to go to the airport, arriving with the client for 8am, catching the last flight home at 6pm and getting home at about 10pm.) Do I get any extra pay or can I down tools at the end of my alotted hours ? Can I f*ck !!!!

So 9-5 with an hour for lunch unless my maths is lacking a bit thats a 35 hour week? :?

As for the early starts and late finishes is that just not the life of someone who works away from his office? This is going to sound patronising but if you dont like it could you not look for a desk bound job?

34 days holiday including 8 for bank holidays ? Well that staks up pretty well against my 32 days, including bank holidays

So you get 2 less than me? not really the end of the world is it and if you feel so hard done by why not ask for more?

Relief rosta, not knowing wht you're doing more than 2 weeks in advance ? You know you're going to work though don't you ?

you're right yes you do know you are going to work yes but I fail to see the point?

So what happens when you get asked to be your best mates best man for his wedding and you cant say yes as you have no clue what you are working? Or some such important event?

Shifts lasting between 4 and 8 hours ...... oooh, I'd love a working day like that.
Having to do 5 shifts per week. Doesn't everyone ?

You seem to have missed the point here I think? If you have to work 35 hours but only do a 4 hours shift that means you have to work extra shifts which makes having any kind of life away from work even more difficult!

Starting work at 4am, not very nice............ yep, familiar with that, but it's part of my job. I get paid for it and more importantly, I knew about it when I took the job.

Nothing really to say here

So, basically, a tube driver works less hours than I do,

No he doesnt

gets more money than I do, gets more holiday than I do,

by a mere 2 days not the amount the press would have you believe!

and is now using blackmail to improve on this.

Are you honestly saying that you wouldnt do it? So if you could 'down tools' as a means of getting beter T+C's you are honestly saying you wouldnt? I smell bull sh!t TBH.

Inconveniences due to shift patterns etc are more than compensated for in the salary and the holiday allowance.

As I explained they get a shift allowance yes but they dont get compensated for it in annual leave they HAVE to work longer than 35 hours a week and get the time in leu back in the form of annual leave

Can you see why I have f*ck all sympathy ?

TBH if what you had said was accurate then yes but it isnt!

And I think I should point out I clearly said that I didnt agree with the reasons for the strike!

I get paid reasonably well for the job that I do in the market that I operate in.
Any inconveniences are generally accounted for.

So what you are saying is you get compensated for inconveniences much like tube drivers!

No disrespect to any tube drivers out there, but my job requires a lot more intelligence and involves a lot more than driving a train.

But a bit like Pilots it's not about the driving it's about accepting the responsibility for the passengers in the event of anything! 99% of the time nothing does happen but as proved on 7/7 even tube drivers have to deal with life or deaths situations sometimes!

Anonymous

Pilots get to wear dashing outfits though.

I doubt many ladies have fantasies about a bloke in a train drivers outfit.

chunkytfg

dmclite wrote:

Pilots get to wear dashing outfits though.

I doubt many ladies have fantasies about a bloke in a train drivers outfit.

Good point and for that one single reason they get paid so much more

markos1963

Pi;ot Pete, I'm only using your job as an analogy, i fully understand the degree of skill needed for you to do that role and thats the point I'm making. The public only see a little of what you are doing and it's the same with train driving, people think we just sit there reading the paper. like yourselves we have retain a vast amount of knowledge for the 'what if x happens?' situation. They don't think about when travelling in fog I am still expected to drive at 100mph whilst totally blind relying on my knowledge of where I am to keep us safe.

Tom Butcher

The whole discussion focussing on what a job is worth is irrelevant - pay is not and never has been determined by how difficult or how worthy a job is.

markos1963

Tom Butcher wrote:

The whole discussion focussing on what a job is worth is irrelevant - pay is not and never has been determined by how difficult or how worthy a job is.

Totally agree with you Tom, we live in a free market economy and whether we like it or not people get what they can get/negotiate.
The people who are slagging off Train Drivers pay would probably run a mile if they were presented with the communist ideal of one wage for all.

snailracer

Rouge Penguin wrote:

Are they taking the absolute wee-wee with the boxing day strike on the Underground?

Considering they work 35hrs a week, get 43 days annual leave, earn £40k a year and get free travel for them and the other half, thats before demanding triple pay and a day in lieu for working a Bank Holiday.

They dont want much do they

Your ire is misplaced. We pay London Underground - a legal entity, a company - to ride the tube, not the union. LU's job is, amongst other things, to manage employees. Managing employees is not easy, but that's why the chief executive and his management team is paid big bucks, and when execs take a job, they acquire the responsibility to get it done.

If the management thinks unions are causing a problem, they should sack all their members and hire new staff. According to some posters, it should be easy enough to find someone competent enough to press a button and then sit on their arse the rest of the day. However, it probably won't work for long as new staff can simply re-unionise. Alternatively, managers could find a way to keep unionised employees on-side (something called "management").

Since the Thatcher era reforms and the privatisation of formerly-public services, unions have had true operational decison-making power stripped away from them. The unions' scope has narrowed to the point that they have almost no say, and thus bear no responsibility, for delivering (or not delivering) public services. Their only remaining obligation is to their own members and not, regrettably, the traveling public. You can't expect employees of a private company to have a public service ethos.

If you are frustrated you can't ride the Tube on Boxing day, blame London Underground (i.e. the company named on your ticket), not some other convenient scapegoat (i.e. union "X") several steps down the food-chain.

snailracer

markos1963 wrote:

...
Given that most of the reporting on this comes from a mainly right wing press it's understandable that peoples opinions on this will be coloured against the dispute...

+1

Mike Brown
Tricia Riley
Gerry Duffy
Howard Collins

Does anyone know who these people are?

Well, they are London Underground executives: Managing Director, Director of Human Resources, Director of Employee Relations and Chief Operating Officer, respectively.

So why is the press not hauling these people up in front of the camera? London Undergound is responsible for keeping the Tube running, not the unions (that is, not since the 1980's). Unions are responsible for sticking up for their members. Unions are so far down the food chain, they don't even appear on the org charts. The union is simply a convenient scapegoat for bad management and the press are, knowingly or otherwise, biased.

StillGoing

As a member of my own organisations representative board i can say It's also the responsibility to of the union to justify the fight and be realistic with their demands. You lose credibility when you pick a fight you can't win. I joined to open the member's eyes to the fact that if they choose to fight every battle, they stand to lose the really important ones.

Not everyone who is against union ransom demands is a capitalist private business owner. Without public support ASLEF and every other union are on to a hiding. Be thankful they've got a job for the next 12 months.

jim453

philthy3 wrote:

As a member of my own organisations representative board i can say It's also the responsibility to of the union to justify the fight and be realistic with their demands. You lose credibility when you pick a fight you can't win. I joined to open the member's eyes to the fact that if they choose to fight every battle, they stand to lose the really important ones.

Not everyone who is against union ransom demands is a capitalist private business owner. Without public support ASLEF and every other union are on to a hiding. Be thankful they've got a job for the next 12 months.

I suspect the employees think this is one of the important battles.

StillGoing

In these financially tight times it is a support loser pure and simple and a non-winner at that. All they'll succeed in doing is putting more business the way of the buses and cabs and less people will flock to the stench-pit of London.

BarryBonds

just think then of a job where youre paid 16k a year, may go on a 6 month shift during which people try very hard to kill you.

Every day

where you work potentially 24hrs a day. There are plus sides, you get a uniform and training with career progression. but you arent allowed union membership.

cushy tube driver jobs shoulod be reserved for those injured preserving our rights to go and get pissed at Christmas.


Fire em and replace them with injured soldiers sailors and airmen.

markos1963

BarryBonds wrote:

just think then of a job where youre paid 16k a year, may go on a 6 month shift during which people try very hard to kill you.

Every day

where you work potentially 24hrs a day. There are plus sides, you get a uniform and training with career progression. but you arent allowed union membership.

cushy tube driver jobs shoulod be reserved for those injured preserving our rights to go and get pissed at Christmas.


Fire em and replace them with injured soldiers sailors and airmen.

Totally agree with your sentement there Barry but let's do this properly, if they are so valuable then I vote we sack the investment bankers instead and really set them up for life.

Jez mon

jim453 wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

As a member of my own organisations representative board i can say It's also the responsibility to of the union to justify the fight and be realistic with their demands. You lose credibility when you pick a fight you can't win. I joined to open the member's eyes to the fact that if they choose to fight every battle, they stand to lose the really important ones.

Not everyone who is against union ransom demands is a capitalist private business owner. Without public support ASLEF and every other union are on to a hiding. Be thankful they've got a job for the next 12 months.

I suspect the employees think this is one of the important battles.

in which case they should perhaps re-evaluate their priorities. They do not appear to be striking over what most people see as an important battle...

There is another point here, whilst undoubtedly much of what I have read on the strikes would be from what most would call right wing sources, Aslef (and unions in general) seem to have the most appalling PR, nothing I have heard from them seems to have justified this extra days holiday...oh sorry I mean strike

gavintc

markos1963 wrote:

Pi;ot Pete, I'm only using your job as an analogy, i fully understand the degree of skill needed for you to do that role and thats the point I'm making. The public only see a little of what you are doing and it's the same with train driving, people think we just sit there reading the paper. like yourselves we have retain a vast amount of knowledge for the 'what if x happens?' situation. They don't think about when travelling in fog I am still expected to drive at 100mph whilst totally blind relying on my knowledge of where I am to keep us safe.

You are taking the piss surely trying to compare flying a 747 with driving a tube train.

markos1963

gavintc wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

Pi;ot Pete, I'm only using your job as an analogy, i fully understand the degree of skill needed for you to do that role and thats the point I'm making. The public only see a little of what you are doing and it's the same with train driving, people think we just sit there reading the paper. like yourselves we have retain a vast amount of knowledge for the 'what if x happens?' situation. They don't think about when travelling in fog I am still expected to drive at 100mph whilst totally blind relying on my knowledge of where I am to keep us safe.

You are taking the wee-wee surely trying to compare flying a 747 with driving a tube train.

No I'm not and you have just proved my point, you don't know anything about either job so how can you argue about anything to do with either.

chunkytfg

Jez mon wrote:

jim453 wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

As a member of my own organisations representative board i can say It's also the responsibility to of the union to justify the fight and be realistic with their demands. You lose credibility when you pick a fight you can't win. I joined to open the member's eyes to the fact that if they choose to fight every battle, they stand to lose the really important ones.

Not everyone who is against union ransom demands is a capitalist private business owner. Without public support ASLEF and every other union are on to a hiding. Be thankful they've got a job for the next 12 months.

I suspect the employees think this is one of the important battles.

in which case they should perhaps re-evaluate their priorities. They do not appear to be striking over what most people see as an important battle...

There is another point here, whilst undoubtedly much of what I have read on the strikes would be from what most would call right wing sources, Aslef (and unions in general) seem to have the most appalling PR, nothing I have heard from them seems to have justified this extra days holiday...oh sorry I mean strike

I wholeheartedly agree. The unions PR is shameful! who in there right mind would put Bob Crow as the face of there organisation!

As for your last point though. I'm sure if you asked your employer nicely they would allow you all the extra days holiday you wanted just like those of us who go out on strike. I'm sure you wont mind not getting paid for those days off aswell

StillGoing

You miss the point; no one is bleating about having additional days off, they're merely pointing out that the tube driver's lot isn't a bad one on the face of it. With hundreds if not thousands of people looking at losing their jobs in the new year and with that, their homes, how do ASLEF expect the public to have any sympathy for them. There's a time for this battle and this isn't it. All ASLEF are doing is preying on necessity.

Every time I've had to use the tube in the met and spoke to a London underground worker, I've found them all to be misrable scallies with little comprehension of the English language. How we're supposed to rely on these individuals to control an emergency situation is beyond me. I expect much like 7/7, the public will take control while the LU workers fanny about waiting for the emergency services.

BarryBonds

philthy3 wrote:

You miss the point; no one is bleating about having additional days off, they're merely pointing out that the tube driver's lot isn't a bad one on the face of it. With hundreds if not thousands of people looking at losing their jobs in the new year and with that, their homes, how do ASLEF expect the public to have any sympathy for them. There's a time for this battle and this isn't it. All ASLEF are doing is preying on necessity.

Every time I've had to use the tube in the met and spoke to a London underground worker, I've found them all to be misrable scallies with little comprehension of the English language. How we're supposed to rely on these individuals to control an emergency situation is beyond me. I expect much like 7/7, the public will take control while the LU workers fanny about waiting for the emergency services.

And tallying up the payments becasue theyve witnessed an incident no doubt. 6 months off full pay its the pain and anguish you know.

rick_chasey

philthy3 wrote:

You miss the point; no one is bleating about having additional days off, they're merely pointing out that the tube driver's lot isn't a bad one on the face of it. With hundreds if not thousands of people looking at losing their jobs in the new year and with that, their homes, how do ASLEF expect the public to have any sympathy for them. There's a time for this battle and this isn't it. All ASLEF are doing is preying on necessity.

Every time I've had to use the tube in the met and spoke to a London underground worker, I've found them all to be misrable scallies with little comprehension of the English language.

You're on the wrong line then. District line. Now there are some polite people! And think of all the good looking people that get on. Mayfair, Chelsea, South Ken, Fulham, etc.

As for the public support - I didn't think the unions were concerned with public support? I thought they were interested in improved working conditions? It's a dispute between the workers and their employers.

Just because in this instance it happens to be a service the public use doesn't suddenly mean it requires a public canvas of opinion to determine weather a strike achieves its objectives or not.

It's clash of two monopolies - the monopoly of the labour vs the monopoly of the employer.