Snow Goggles vs Bike Goggles

mea00csf

Usually snow goggles are a much better construction than bike goggles. Double lenses have been mentioned but they also tend to be curved in 3 dimensions, not just a flat lens wrapped around your face like bike goggles so there's less distortion at the peripharies.

Nachimir

That depends, the more expensive ones have bubble rather than barrel lenses, but certainly not all.

flet©h

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Surely if you take the goggles off in the gondola, then whether they're double glazed or not makes no difference?

- Goggle misting is caused by condensation forming on the inner surface of the lens
- This condensation forms because the inner surface of the lens is cooler than the air trapped inside the goggles, this air being warmed by your face.
- The inner surface of the lens is cold because the outer surface is exposed to the cold air and conducts heat away from the inner lens surface.

- A double lens helps because (like double glassing in a house) this conduction is prevented as the outer lens surface is separated from the inner one.
- The inner lens surface doesn't get as cold and condensation does not form.

Putting your goggles on after you get out of the gondola may help but you will then get a cold face! If you put them on before you get out the double glazing will help.

- Good goggles attack misting from another angle, venting.
- This ensures are is sucked/blown though the goggles
- The air inside becomes less warm and moist and less likely to form condensation.
- This process alone is enough to mist goggles on a gondola as there is no air flow but the air inside the goggles gets all warm and moist next to your sweaty face.

Anonymous

right, so if you take them OFF, then they won't be as warm as your face? So they mist?

Bar Shaker

yeehaamcgee wrote:

right, so if you take them OFF, then they won't be as warm as your face? So they mist?

Yep

flet©h

Bar Shaker wrote:

yeehaamcgee wrote:

right, so if you take them OFF, then they won't be as warm as your face? So they mist?

Yep

No

Not at all. If I could be arsed to draw a diagram it would all look very simple.

Imagine you are in a warm place with some goggles in your hand. The air touching the inside and outside of the lenses will be the same temperature. Put the goggles on your face. There will be very little change in the temperature of the air touching either sides of the goggle lenses. No misting.

Step outside. Cold air hits the outside of the goggles. Both surfaces of the lens cool due to conduction of heat. The air inside is still warm. Condensation forms of the inside of the lens. This is misting.

(There are loads of other ways to get condensation on googles lenses but what I have described above is the misting that will affect you when skiing/boarding. e.g.
- If you stop exercising and go somewhere hot your body will expel lots of heat and moisture, this can cause condensation to form on the ins goggles. This is what happens in a gondola if you keep the goggles on the top of your sweaty head. It will get worse when your step outside due to the effect above.
- If you go into a warm place with a cold object condensation will form on it. This could be the outside of your googles, your glasses or a metal ski pole. You can test this one with your bike at the moment if you keep it in a cold shed. Bring it inside and condensation will form on the outside of the frame)

Condensation forms when warm air hits cold surfaces. Simple as that.

Double glazing in goggles prevents the inner lens getting cold. Again very simple.

Venting stops the air inside getting hot. Also simple.

Bar Shaker

flet©h wrote:

Step outside. Cold air hits the outside of the goggles. Both surfaces of the lens cool due to conduction of heat. The air inside is still warm. Condensation forms of the inside of the lens. This is misting.

I have double glazed lenses so the inner lens stays warm and they don't mist. Perhaps that's why mine never mist up going from warm to cold.

Even a single glazed lens would take a while to cool down on the inside, so becoming a problem and I think you have talked yourself into trying to prove something that doesn't happen.

Anonymous

Like I said, I've used my single glazed MX goggles, going from a toasty warm house out into seriously sub zero conditions, several times, and never had a misting issue.
Although, I do now understand why they might do so when going from sub zero temps to the warm - but at that point I'd likely be taking them off anyway.

ddraver

I'm with people on the misting thing - happens to my camera very easily - The question is does it require an extra £30 to sort out - can I just take them off when i go in a restaurant (where tbh my knicked goggles used to steam up also)

i think with he snow i'm not going to get any before i leave now anyway so it does nt really matter, ill just have to survive with my crappy old ones!

Anonymous

ddraver wrote:

I'm with people on the misting thing - happens to my camera very easily -

EPIC FACEPALM!!

Oh yeah, DUH! I'd forgotten about that
But again, I've never seen my camera steam when going from warm to cold. Always the other way round though.

flet©h

Bar Shaker wrote:

I have double glazed lenses so the inner lens stays warm and they don't mist. Perhaps that's why mine never mist up going from warm to cold.

Even a single glazed lens would take a while to cool down on the inside, so becoming a problem and I think you have talked yourself into trying to prove something that doesn't happen.

Exactly. The misting I have described is exactly what double glazed lenses are designed to stop. Yours have done it successfully.

It does happen with crappy cheap single glazed goggles as I discovered last winter. I have now purchased some A frames.

yeehaamcgee wrote:

ddraver wrote:

I'm with people on the misting thing - happens to my camera very easily -

EPIC FACEPALM!!

Oh yeah, DUH! I'd forgotten about that
But again, I've never seen my camera steam when going from warm to cold. Always the other way round though.

that just demonstrates that you either didn't read what I have written or don't understand what is happening. Anything cold enough, a camera, a bike, your glasses, will get condensation on it when surrounded by air that is warm and wet enough.

That is irrelevant to goggles since if they attract condensation in this way you just take them off. Your camera won't mist going from warm to cold as it doesn't have a trapped layer of warm air next to a damp heat source such as a face.

It's not the change of temp when going inside/outside but the temperature of the surface relative to the air that you need to consider. (Thermal conductivity also plays a part.)

Anonymous

flet©h wrote:

yeehaamcgee wrote:

ddraver wrote:

I'm with people on the misting thing - happens to my camera very easily -

EPIC FACEPALM!!

Oh yeah, DUH! I'd forgotten about that
But again, I've never seen my camera steam when going from warm to cold. Always the other way round though.

that just demonstrates that you either didn't read what I have written or don't understand what is happening. Anything cold enough, a camera, a bike, your glasses, will get condensation on it when surrounded by air that is warm and wet enough.

What? Stop being so condescending you ignorant little shite.

I have NEVER seen anything mist when going from a warm environment, into a cold one. Not once.
That has nothing to do with understanding your blathering, it is just a fact that I've never seen it happen.
So, if it is possible for that to occur, then it must either be so rare as to be pointless, or the conditions must be absolutely perfect for it to occur. Which would be pretty rare.

flet©h

yeehaamcgee wrote:

What? Stop being so condescending you ignorant little shite.

I have NEVER seen anything mist when going from a warm environment, into a cold one. Not once.
That has nothing to do with understanding your blathering, it is just a fact that I've never seen it happen.
So, if it is possible for that to occur, then it must either be so rare as to be pointless, or the conditions must be absolutely perfect for it to occur. Which would be pretty rare.

Yea a flame war!

Like I said, it's nothing to do with "going into the cold". It's the difference in temperature between the surface and the air near it.

Anyway. If goggles never mist up in a cold environment, except in perfect conditions, why are all good goggles double glazed to pevent exactly that? Is it all makering BS or is what I have been trying to explain a fairly common problem that happens a lot with less good goggles? Go visit some skiing forums, see what they have to say, think about the process behind condensation and make up your own mind. I'm done trying to explain it to someone who is just trying to find ways for their original opinion to be correct.

Anonymous

flet©h wrote:

I'm done trying to explain it to someone who is just trying to find ways for their original opinion to be correct.

I don't have an opinion on it, one way or the other. I'm trying to learn why and what.
What is being claimed contradicts completely with my experiences though.

The reason for double glazed goggles has been well explained, due to the warmth of the face and the cold air etc. Fair enough.
BUT, I have still NEVER seen anything misting when going from a warm environment to a cold one.
i don't deny that double glazed goggles work better - it makes sense, but there is a lot of crap being handed out as facts here.

Anonymous

flet©h wrote:

Condensation forms when warm air hits cold surfaces. Simple as that

See? So how does that in any way explain why something like a camera, or for that matter, any warm object being taken out into the cold would mist?

flet©h

yeehaamcgee wrote:

flet©h wrote:

Condensation forms when warm air hits cold surfaces. Simple as that

See? So how does that in any way explain why something like a camera, or for that matter, any warm object being taken out into the cold would mist?

It wouldn't. That is what I have been trying to explain.

Given that a cold surface next to warm wet air = condensation the rest explains itself.

Cold camera + warm air indoors = condensation on the cold outer surfaces of the camera
Cold goggles + warm air indoors = condensation on the cold outer surface of the goggles
Cold goggle lens + warm air trapped inside the goggles = condensation on the cold inner surface of the lens.
Double glazed goggles prevent the inside surface of the lens getting cold.

Its probably cold enough to test it tonight. Dress up in the warmest jacket you have, put your goggles on inside and get nice and warm, go and stand still outside and see what happens.

ddraver

I have to admit I find it hard to believe a thin bit of air would make any difference, but I have no basis for this - i suppose it provides a more gentle "Hot-mid-cold" transistion which prevents steaming...

My Endura Glasses have been pretty useless recently in the cold air, they just steam almost straight away unless I'm going downhill fast - by which i mean 30mph down a fireroad sort of fast...

I'm with yeeha though, can't remember anything steaming going from warm to cold, although perhaps that's just cos i don't notice....

individual6891

This thread has seemed to taken a turn for the worse. LAUGH!

Anonymous

flet©h wrote:

yeehaamcgee wrote:

flet©h wrote:

Condensation forms when warm air hits cold surfaces. Simple as that

See? So how does that in any way explain why something like a camera, or for that matter, any warm object being taken out into the cold would mist?

It wouldn't. That is what I have been trying to explain.

Given that a cold surface next to warm wet air = condensation the rest explains itself.

Cold camera + warm air indoors = condensation on the cold outer surfaces of the camera
Cold goggles + warm air indoors = condensation on the cold outer surface of the goggles
Cold goggle lens + warm air trapped inside the goggles = condensation on the cold inner surface of the lens.
Double glazed goggles prevent the inside surface of the lens getting cold.

Its probably cold enough to test it tonight. Dress up in the warmest jacket you have, put your goggles on inside and get nice and warm, go and stand still outside and see what happens.

Been doing it regularly all weekend with goggles, sunglasses and camera. None of them steam up when going from toasty warm to cold, they all do when going from cold to warm.

cavegiant

Don't get either.

PPE stuff is much higher quality and a lower price, also vat free =-)

Screwfix is your friend for any protective equipment

Bar Shaker

I think the confusion began when you said

flet©h wrote:

Just see what happens when you go from a warm gondola, chalet, restaurant etc. Even sunglasses will mist up in those circumstances

I asked if it was not the other way round (cold to warm) and you said it was both (which it isn't).

You now seem to be saying that you never said the above quote.

Were you wrong back then, after all?

flet©h

Bar Shaker wrote:

I think the confusion began when you said

flet©h wrote:

Just see what happens when you go from a warm gondola, chalet, restaurant etc. Even sunglasses will mist up in those circumstances

I asked if it was not the other way round (cold to warm) and you said it was both (which it isn't).

You now seem to be saying that you never said the above quote.

Were you wrong back then, after all?

Cold surfaces, hot air. There is nothing else to it. Now think about the circumstances that can create that scenario.

Taking some hot air to a cold place is one way that can happen but isn't in itself going to cause the problem. The "moving between places" thing seemed to be confusing some people as they seemed to be getting mixed up between the cause of the condensation (cold surface, hot air) and the cause of the ingredients for condensation. Hence why I tried to separate the two.

If you are so convinced that what I'm saying is incorrect can you explain why/how your double glazed goggles prevent misting?

Bar Shaker

I could explain that it was something to do with the inner pane keeping warmer but I have lost the will to live.

I only do an average of 4 weeks a year and have only been boarding for 20 years so it might be better if someone with more experience settles this one.

flet©h

Bar Shaker wrote:

I could explain that it was something to do with the inner pane keeping warmer but I have lost the will to live.

I only do an average of 4 weeks a year and have only been boarding for 20 years so it might be better if someone with more experience settles this one.

Nope - nobody else needed, you have got it. The double glazing keeps the inner pane warmer.

So when does the inner pane need to be kept warm? Is it when your are in a nice warm chalet, cable car etc or is it when your are out in the cold?

Bar Shaker

So me (or anyone else) never (ever) steaming up when going from warm to cold, despite you saying we would, is now accepted as fact.

flet©h

Bar Shaker wrote:

So me (or anyone else) never (ever) steaming up when going from warm to cold, despite you saying we would, is now accepted as fact.

I never said you always would, I just said it was more likely if you used you MX/Bike goggles in the snow, which you don't.

Seriously though, when are those fantastic warm inner lenses on your double glazed goggles earning their keep. Is it in the warm inside when you need to see the bar or outside in the cold when you need to see where you are going?

ddraver

So why do cars etc not come with them so the windscreens not steam up? (I ask purely out of curiosity)

@fletch - presumably the problem with a single layer goggle is that the heat from ones face heats the inside of the lens - which being one layer - warms the outside of the lens resulting in condensation forming from the cold outside air

Having a thin layer of air to me would appear ineffective but I have no basis for this as my old ski goggles (not my awesome new ones that some thieving POS knicked last year) are in Cornwall and I'm in N Wales...I promise i ll try on Xmas eve when i'm home home.

I suppose the warmth of the bar would cause condensation on the lens when one went outside into the cold air - This seems to be alot lot rarer though, perhaps the temperature gradient is not steep enough or the time taken for condensation to form allows the temperature to equalise

Anonymous

Double glazed windows are useless if the gap between the panes is not sealed too, it might be worth pointing out.
The one in my bedroom has condensation on the inside, the outside, and also on the inside faces of the two panes.
feckin useless.

flet©h

ddraver wrote:

So why do cars etc not come with them so the windscreens not steam up? (I ask purely out of curiosity)

Probably due to cost, weight and the far cheaper solution of blowing hot dry air onto the inside of the screen to head the glass and evaporate the condensation that forms.

A car is a good example of the warm inside, cold outside condensation process though.

ddraver wrote:

@fletch - presumably the problem with a single layer goggle is that the heat from ones face heats the inside of the lens - which being one layer - warms the outside of the lens resulting in condensation forming from the cold outside air

Having a thin layer of air to me would appear ineffective but I have no basis for this as my old ski goggles (not my awesome new ones that some thieving POS knicked last year) are in Cornwall and I'm in N Wales...I promise i ll try on Xmas eve when i'm home home.

I suppose the warmth of the bar would cause condensation on the lens when one went outside into the cold air - This seems to be alot lot rarer though, perhaps the temperature gradient is not steep enough or the time taken for condensation to form allows the temperature to equalise

Condensation forms on cold surfaces, not hot ones. It forms when the air is warm, not cold.

Anonymous

Actually, sticking on the air con, or opening a window clears condensation quicker from the inside of a windscreen, than hot blowers can