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  • spen666
    spen666 Posts: 17,709
    notsoblue wrote:
    shouldbeinbed wrote:
    Attlee: NHS creaking badly now and mullered by capitalist principles in the ultimate socialist environment (as in was free at the point of care whether you're a billionare or on the street - not intended as political daggers, hopefully you get what I mean) but a magnificent thing to have aspired to and overseen the inception of.

    +1, actually, I can't think of anything a PM has done for this country that could top the NHS. War PMs don't count.

    why?

    Why not limit the choice of answers only to Attlee in that case?

    If you exclude pm's then you are biasing the results
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  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    spen666 wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    +1, actually, I can't think of anything a PM has done for this country that could top the NHS. War PMs don't count.

    why?

    Why not limit the choice of answers only to Attlee in that case?

    If you exclude pm's then you are biasing the results

    Well this is just my humble opinion of course, but unless Iron Man was PM at any point, the implication that a PM can claim sole responsibility for winning a war is ridiculous. People laud Churchill primarily because he was PM during a war that we won. I suppose you could argue that strong leadership is what defines a good PM, but I think its more than just that.
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  • Butterd2
    Butterd2 Posts: 937
    Headhuunter wrote:
    Butterd2 wrote:
    Headhuunter wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    shouldbeinbed wrote:
    Attlee: NHS creaking badly now and mullered by capitalist principles in the ultimate socialist environment (as in was free at the point of care whether you're a billionare or on the street - not intended as political daggers, hopefully you get what I mean) but a magnificent thing to have aspired to and overseen the inception of.

    +1, actually, I can't think of anything a PM has done for this country that could top the NHS. War PMs don't count.

    I'm not sure the NHS is all it's cracked up to be. At the end of WW2 it was needed but now we could do much better. The NHS is an enormous bureaucratic mess and the largest public sector body outside communist China, yet healthcare in this country is faaaaar from perfect. In Germany there is a private health system and insurance is paid for by employers and the system works quickly and efficiently at less cost per individual than the NHS. The NHS has a place in this country's heart and like a mother's apron strings we cling to it, but it's time to cut those strings and reform.

    Wow, what are the chances of the only 2 people in the country willing to question the NHS being on the same cycling forum?

    I'm genuinely interested on what basis you believe that the NHS is the best and most efficient way to run health services in the UK?

    Read my posts above, I'm on your side mate.
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  • Butterd2
    Butterd2 Posts: 937
    notsoblue wrote:
    l
    Er, but there are so many areas within the NHS that could never be profitable. What possible benefit could competition in this sector have for say the elderly poor?

    Er, better services, better treatments, better survival rates, not much really I guess.

    The elderly and poor are also better off under French/German systems, but don't let that stop you thinking us Brits are so clever that we have thought of a system no one else in the world could possibly replicate. They choose not to replicate it because it's crap.
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  • Wallace1492
    Wallace1492 Posts: 3,707
    notsoblue wrote:
    spen666 wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    +1, actually, I can't think of anything a PM has done for this country that could top the NHS. War PMs don't count.

    why?

    Why not limit the choice of answers only to Attlee in that case?

    If you exclude pm's then you are biasing the results

    Well this is just my humble opinion of course, but unless Iron Man was PM at any point, the implication that a PM can claim sole responsibility for winning a war is ridiculous. People laud Churchill primarily because he was PM during a war that we won. I suppose you could argue that strong leadership is what defines a good PM, but I think its more than just that.

    Well then do you excude Thatcher (Falklands) Blair (Iraq) Atlee (Korea) Ened (Suez) Wilson (Cod) Major (Gulf War).

    Has to be all inclusive....
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  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,355
    ^^^^^^

    And every PM since 1968
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    Wallace1492 wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    spen666 wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    +1, actually, I can't think of anything a PM has done for this country that could top the NHS. War PMs don't count.

    why?

    Why not limit the choice of answers only to Attlee in that case?

    If you exclude pm's then you are biasing the results

    Well this is just my humble opinion of course, but unless Iron Man was PM at any point, the implication that a PM can claim sole responsibility for winning a war is ridiculous. People laud Churchill primarily because he was PM during a war that we won. I suppose you could argue that strong leadership is what defines a good PM, but I think its more than just that.

    Well then do you excude Thatcher (Falklands) Blair (Iraq) Atlee (Korea) Ened (Suez) Wilson (Cod) Major (Gulf War).

    Has to be all inclusive....

    Well the point I was (probably quite poorly) trying to make was that often the only reason given for Churchill being a favourite is the war.
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  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,407
    Wallace1492 wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    spen666 wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    +1, actually, I can't think of anything a PM has done for this country that could top the NHS. War PMs don't count.

    why?

    Why not limit the choice of answers only to Attlee in that case?

    If you exclude pm's then you are biasing the results

    Well this is just my humble opinion of course, but unless Iron Man was PM at any point, the implication that a PM can claim sole responsibility for winning a war is ridiculous. People laud Churchill primarily because he was PM during a war that we won. I suppose you could argue that strong leadership is what defines a good PM, but I think its more than just that.

    Well then do you excude Thatcher (Falklands) Blair (Iraq) Atlee (Korea) Ened (Suez) Wilson (Cod) Major (Gulf War).

    Has to be all inclusive....

    That's a pretty depressing list.
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  • Wallace1492
    Wallace1492 Posts: 3,707
    notsoblue wrote:
    Wallace1492 wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    spen666 wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    +1, actually, I can't think of anything a PM has done for this country that could top the NHS. War PMs don't count.

    why?

    Why not limit the choice of answers only to Attlee in that case?

    If you exclude pm's then you are biasing the results

    Well this is just my humble opinion of course, but unless Iron Man was PM at any point, the implication that a PM can claim sole responsibility for winning a war is ridiculous. People laud Churchill primarily because he was PM during a war that we won. I suppose you could argue that strong leadership is what defines a good PM, but I think its more than just that.

    Well then do you excude Thatcher (Falklands) Blair (Iraq) Atlee (Korea) Ened (Suez) Wilson (Cod) Major (Gulf War).

    Has to be all inclusive....

    Well the point I was (probably quite poorly) trying to make was that often the only reason given for Churchill being a favourite is the war.

    Saving our freedom and way of life from the tyranny of the nastiest, most ruthless, power hungry regime that has ever been in existence in the history of humankind sorta wins it for me. Ticking that box makes up for rather a lot... He (Churchill) did the job he was born for, and boy did he do it well.
    "Encyclopaedia is a fetish for very small bicycles"
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,355
    Wallace1492 wrote:
    Saving our freedom and way of life from the tyranny of the nastiest, most ruthless, power hungry regime that has ever been in existence in the history of humankind sorta wins it for me. Ticking that box makes up for rather a lot... He (Churchill) did the job he was born for, and boy did he do it well.


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  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    Wallace1492 wrote:
    Saving our freedom and way of life from the tyranny of the nastiest, most ruthless, power hungry regime that has ever been in existence in the history of humankind sorta wins it for me. Ticking that box makes up for rather a lot... He (Churchill) did the job he was born for, and boy did he do it well.

    Thats *exactly* what I mean. We clearly have different views on what makes a great PM, and thats cool. :)
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  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,407
    Wallace1492 wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    Wallace1492 wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    spen666 wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    +1, actually, I can't think of anything a PM has done for this country that could top the NHS. War PMs don't count.

    why?

    Why not limit the choice of answers only to Attlee in that case?

    If you exclude pm's then you are biasing the results

    Well this is just my humble opinion of course, but unless Iron Man was PM at any point, the implication that a PM can claim sole responsibility for winning a war is ridiculous. People laud Churchill primarily because he was PM during a war that we won. I suppose you could argue that strong leadership is what defines a good PM, but I think its more than just that.

    Well then do you excude Thatcher (Falklands) Blair (Iraq) Atlee (Korea) Ened (Suez) Wilson (Cod) Major (Gulf War).

    Has to be all inclusive....

    Well the point I was (probably quite poorly) trying to make was that often the only reason given for Churchill being a favourite is the war.

    Saving our freedom and way of life from the tyranny of the nastiest, most ruthless, power hungry regime that has ever been in existence in the history of humankind sorta wins it for me. Ticking that box makes up for rather a lot... He (Churchill) did the job he was born for, and boy did he do it well.

    Sadly, there should be a 'one of' in that first sentence. The Third Reich was maybe just one of the more efficient.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
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    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • wgwarburton
    wgwarburton Posts: 1,863
    rjsterry wrote:
    ...That's a pretty depressing list.

    1968 was the only year of the 20th century, and is currently the only year since the second world war, that a British soldier wasn't Killed in Action.

    Cheers,
    W.

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