Under or Over take

patchworks79

Hey there,

To get myself back on the bike I've taken up commuting each day... it's a pretty good ride, 12 miles each way of which a good few miles gets congested with solid traffic.

I would normally undertake the cars and weave when blocked but I've found more and more cars not looking for me and squeezing me into the pavement, or not leaving enough room for me to come up inside them or just pulling out from junctions in front of me.

This last week I took to overtaking them on the outside, riding down the middle of the road. I found all of these problems went away and it increased my average speed as well as making I'm out of the lethal door zone but whilst riding home one night with a colleague, she called me crazy and thought it dangerous.

Is it bad etiquette, should I stick to the undertaking on the inside?? What is the generally accepted and safest riding style?

Thanks

Patch

spen666

both are legal. Do whatever makes you feel safe. There are risks with both

daviesee

Both are legal. Both have risks. Beware.

I would say though, that drivers are more likely (but not certain) to look in mirrors before turning right than they are left.

Headhuunter

I go wherever there is space. If the traffic is moving slowly or jammed, cyclists are allowed to filter through it. Although I have been cut up by drivers turning acoss my path into left turns, or crossing right over my path from the other direction, I have also almost been knocked off by drivers suddenly deciding to do a u turn from jammed traffic as I filter along the right...

AndyOgy

Left is very dodgy, and technically undertaking. Drivers don't expect to see you there because you shouldn't be there.

Most of the time, I just stay in the lane with the traffic. No issues with visibility then. If I really must overtake, then it's always on the right - with extreme caution.

ooermissus

spen666 wrote:

both are legal. Do whatever makes you feel safe. There are risks with both

+1 - and I don't think it makes sense to do one or the other - decisions have to be taken on the spot based on road conditions.

Anonymous

For me it depends if the traffic is moving or not.

If the traffic is moving slowly I'm more likely to be in the inside, if it's stopped I'm more likely to be on the right in the middle of the road.

Reason being I do prefer to be in the right, I believe your more likely to be seen and there are generally less hazards in the middle of the road. But it's not a good place to be if the traffic starts moving faster and you stuck in the middle of the road with cars effectively undertaking you.

jeremyrundle

I have found that educating :!: drivers who tend to pull over to the pavement ignoring the existance of a cyclist works with a blast from an airzound. You can easily see if a motorist begins to cut you off by pulling to the kerb.

Hopefully they will then think that just perhaps a cyclist may also be using the road next time.

spen666

AndyOgy wrote:

Left is very dodgy, and technically undertaking. Drivers don't expect to see you there because you shouldn't be there.

Most of the time, I just stay in the lane with the traffic. No issues with visibility then. If I really must overtake, then it's always on the right - with extreme caution.

The left side may be undertaking, but undertaking on a bike or on motorised transport is not illegal - suprisingly perhaps.

Anonymous

spen666 wrote:

The left side may be undertaking, but undertaking on a bike or on motorised transport is not illegal - suprisingly perhaps.

What even in a car on the motorway, at speed? I can see how it's OK in town or when moving very slow. But in all situations?

spen666

RichardSwt wrote:

spen666 wrote:

The left side may be undertaking, but undertaking on a bike or on motorised transport is not illegal - suprisingly perhaps.

What even in a car on the motorway, at speed? I can see how it's OK in town or when moving very slow. But in all situations?

Yes - even on motorway.

There is legal authority on this- I can't recall the case off the top of my head as am on a different laptop to usual.
The PNLD (Police National Legal Database) confirms undertaking is not illegal

jeremyrundle

I have just called the police (08452) 777 444, for my own benefit and have been told.

"whilst it is preferable to overtake on the ouside of cars, it is down to your own common sense, as a cyclist, as a cyclist myself I would go down the inside being aware of vehicles turning left, people opening doors and cars pulling over to avoid oncoming traffic, after all if you are on the outside and cars start moving it can be more dangerous being stuck on the ouside not able to get back over".

That was the words of a traffic poiceman today.

Recorded in case I am ever told I should not.

alfablue

jeremyrundle wrote:

Recorded in case I am ever told I should not.

They agreed to the recording?

jeremyrundle

No, however it is NOT illegal to record any conversation, it is simply not admissable in court as eveidence, however that does not mean it can not be replaid to solicitors, press or anyone else.

alfablue

I understood that it could not be played to a third party unless it was recorded with consent. Obviously not so.

jeremyrundle

alfablue wrote:

I understood that it could not be played to a third party unless it was recorded with consent. Obviously not so.

Can I record telephone conversations on my home phone?

Yes. The relevant law, RIPA, does not prohibit individuals from recording their own communications provided that the recording is for their own use. Recording or monitoring are only prohibited where some of the contents of the communication - which can be a phone conversation or an e-mail - are made available to a third party, ie someone who was neither the caller or sender nor the intended recipient of the original communication. For further information see the Home Office website where RIPA is posted.

CORRECT, to a large extent but a gray area, as with amny conversations, we now take for granted, with NEWSPAPERS covert recordings.

tailwindhome

Always remember that you are under no obligation to do either

Sometimes it's safer just to wait until the traffic starts moving again.

Headhuunter

TailWindHome wrote:

Always remember that you are under no obligation to do either

Sometimes it's safer just to wait until the traffic starts moving again.

If you're not going to filter as you are legally allowed to do (with caution), you may as well sit in your warm car with with the stereo on along with all the other chumps in traffic jams. One of the main beauties of cycling to me is the ability to whip past all that traffic going nowhere...

graeme_s-2

RichardSwt wrote:

Reason being I do prefer to be in the right, I believe your more likely to be seen and there are generally less hazards in the middle of the road. But it's not a good place to be if the traffic starts moving faster and you stuck in the middle of the road with cars effectively undertaking you.

I almost always filter on the right, and have never been caught out by traffic moving off or accelerating. The trick is to look ahead, and anticipate the traffic increasing in speed. As it does you can move back into the primary position (centre of the lane of traffic), and then across to the secondary position if speed continues to increase and it's safe to do so.

As the traffic starts to accelerate, you just need to pass the last car that's moving more slowly than you, then look over your shoulder, indicate and move in behind it. It really isn't as big a problem as a lot of people seem to think it will be.

Anonymous

Graeme_S wrote:

RichardSwt wrote:

Reason being I do prefer to be in the right, I believe your more likely to be seen and there are generally less hazards in the middle of the road. But it's not a good place to be if the traffic starts moving faster and you stuck in the middle of the road with cars effectively undertaking you.

I almost always filter on the right, and have never been caught out by traffic moving off or accelerating. The trick is to look ahead, and anticipate the traffic increasing in speed. As it does you can move back into the primary position (centre of the lane of traffic), and then across to the secondary position if speed continues to increase and it's safe to do so.

As the traffic starts to accelerate, you just need to pass the last car that's moving more slowly than you, then look over your shoulder, indicate and move in behind it. It really isn't as big a problem as a lot of people seem to think it will be.

Fair point, that dose make scene.

mudcovered

Graeme_S wrote:

As the traffic starts to accelerate, you just need to pass the last car that's moving more slowly than you, then look over your shoulder, indicate and move in behind it. It really isn't as big a problem as a lot of people seem to think it will be.

Yep that works just fine. Same applies to handling oncoming traffic if the road starts to narrow. Make sure you are looking far enough ahead that you can find a little gap to tuck into the stationary traffic well before the oncoming vehicle gets to close.

I found that filtering past cars has gotten a lot easier once I started to do it like this. Car drivers expect it (because of motorbikes) and are looking out for it a lot of the time. This means that they will often pull towards the kerb to give you some extra room as well.

Mike

wgwarburton

jeremyrundle wrote:

I have just called the police (08452) 777 444, for my own benefit and have been told.

"whilst it is preferable to overtake on the ouside of cars, it is down to your own common sense, as a cyclist, as a cyclist myself I would go down the inside being aware of vehicles turning left, people opening doors and cars pulling over to avoid oncoming traffic, after all if you are on the outside and cars start moving it can be more dangerous being stuck on the ouside not able to get back over".

That was the words of a traffic poiceman today.

Bear in mind that the traffic policeman may not be an experienced cyclist. There's no reason why a confident cyclist should be concerned about being "stuck on the outside", as explained by Graeme_S.

Recorded in case I am ever told I should not.

*sigh*, live and let live, Jeremy.

Cheers,
W.

Headhuunter

mudcovered wrote:

Graeme_S wrote:

As the traffic starts to accelerate, you just need to pass the last car that's moving more slowly than you, then look over your shoulder, indicate and move in behind it. It really isn't as big a problem as a lot of people seem to think it will be.

Yep that works just fine. Same applies to handling oncoming traffic if the road starts to narrow. Make sure you are looking far enough ahead that you can find a little gap to tuck into the stationary traffic well before the oncoming vehicle gets to close.

I found that filtering past cars has gotten a lot easier once I started to do it like this. Car drivers expect it (because of motorbikes) and are looking out for it a lot of the time. This means that they will often pull towards the kerb to give you some extra room as well.

Mike

That's true and often they will pull in for a motorbike passing on the right without checking for cyclists on the left. I've been nearly caught out by sudden changes of line by motorists trying to let a motorbike through which is a bit of a nightmare...

jeremyrundle

RichardSwt wrote:

Graeme_S wrote:

RichardSwt wrote:

Reason being I do prefer to be in the right, I believe your more likely to be seen and there are generally less hazards in the middle of the road. But it's not a good place to be if the traffic starts moving faster and you stuck in the middle of the road with cars effectively undertaking you.

I almost always filter on the right, and have never been caught out by traffic moving off or accelerating. The trick is to look ahead, and anticipate the traffic increasing in speed. As it does you can move back into the primary position (centre of the lane of traffic), and then across to the secondary position if speed continues to increase and it's safe to do so.

As the traffic starts to accelerate, you just need to pass the last car that's moving more slowly than you, then look over your shoulder, indicate and move in behind it. It really isn't as big a problem as a lot of people seem to think it will be.

Fair point, that dose make scene.

I agree "but" we are not all young fast riders, but are still legally allowed on the road, slower riders feel safer on the inside.

mudcovered

jeremyrundle wrote:

I agree "but" we are not all young fast riders, but are still legally allowed on the road, slower riders feel safer on the inside.

It is easier to do the overtake right if you are a faster rider but I've also done it at slow speed when things aren't moving. I've got no objection to those who filter on the left it just requires a different awareness.
When on the left you need to look for:

1. Cars pulling in, parking or turning left.
2. Passenger doors opening.

These hazards lead to a lower safe speed when filtering. Whilst I do filter predominantly on the right I will still do it on the left from time to time.

Filtering on the right is mostly about confidence rather than speed but I'll happily share the road as a cyclist and a drive with those who want to filter on the left as well. I know how long it took me to build up the confidence to start doing it.

Mike

The Rookie

It is what I do as well at the only set of lights on my commute.....

Simon

tailwindhome

Headhuunter wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Always remember that you are under no obligation to do either

Sometimes it's safer just to wait until the traffic starts moving again.

If you're not going to filter as you are legally allowed to do (with caution), you may as well sit in your warm car with with the stereo on along with all the other chumps in traffic jams. One of the main beauties of cycling to me is the ability to whip past all that traffic going nowhere...

Sometimes it's safer NOT to filter.

Sometimes

Valy

TailWindHome wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Always remember that you are under no obligation to do either

Sometimes it's safer just to wait until the traffic starts moving again.

If you're not going to filter as you are legally allowed to do (with caution), you may as well sit in your warm car with with the stereo on along with all the other chumps in traffic jams. One of the main beauties of cycling to me is the ability to whip past all that traffic going nowhere...

Sometimes it's safer NOT to filter.

Sometimes

I agree - there is a place where the space is really tight at rush hour. While maybe not standing still, I have to slow right down.

hatbeard

TailWindHome wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Always remember that you are under no obligation to do either

Sometimes it's safer just to wait until the traffic starts moving again.

If you're not going to filter as you are legally allowed to do (with caution), you may as well sit in your warm car with with the stereo on along with all the other chumps in traffic jams. One of the main beauties of cycling to me is the ability to whip past all that traffic going nowhere...

Sometimes it's safer NOT to filter.

Sometimes

today was especially bad on my way in for cars/trucks/lorrys/elephants/dinosaurs/ufo's/you name it blocking cycle lanes seemingly every few hundred yards just before a set of lights. the more experienced (impatient) riders filtered through as only they can like some cyclist version of a 9-year old playing snake on a nokia 3210 and zipped off through the (red) lights.

the thing that disconcerted me was the number of amateur cyclists who tried to follow suit and put themselves in some wince-inducing dangerous situations.

I was in no particular rush to get in so quite often I just sat back behind whatever was blocking me and waited for the traffic to start moving again then I passed the other noobs who'd risked life and limb 50 yards of the other side of the lights anyways.

I'm all for making good time and getting up speed where I can but this whole 'i'm so important anything that makes me stop should give me right of way as I'm the most vulnerable thing on the road' attitude that some (actually, most) cyclists I see on my commute seem to have kind of pisses me off. it's no different social behaviour than the boy racer in his souped up hatchback sitting on the arse of a slower car and dangerously trying to swerve around them as they're slowing him down. sometimes you just have to reduce your speed a little and follow the flow of traffic.

wizzlebanger

Fully agree with last post!!!!! Sometimes I undertake, sometimes I overtake and sometimes I just stop, safely wait and carry on.

I'm never in that much of a rush, or in that much of a blind pursuit of speed to catch the commuter in front or shave a second of my daily commute, to endanger myself by doing something stupid.

I'm not saying under or overtaking is stupid I'm just agreeing with the last post. Commuting by bicycle is hard enough without making silly decisions. Be safe peeps!!!!

Phate

I do both to be honest! I know the roads of my commute well enough now to know where it is best to be on the inside (majority of traffic going straight on or right) and when to move to the outside when the majority of traffic will be taking the left turn!

Also knowing the order of the lights I'm approaching will affect whether or not I feel I have enough time to go down the outside and reach the lights before they change or not!

Don't think there is a right or wrong tbh it's just down to sensible road knowledge and doing whats best/safest in the situation!