Catriona Patel ruling
Comments
-
To split hairs, I think he has been found guilty of 20 or so offences while driving disqualified - but that does not mean he was caught 20 times. On one occasion, for example, he was jailed after admitting 16 offences of driving while disqualified.
Your wider point stands though - he's already been to jail at least twice, and it hasn't deterred him.0 -
ooermissus wrote:W1 wrote:It certainly is not "pretty clear" where the blame lies in this case - at least, not yet. If and when that position changes then by all means take previous issues into account and go mad about it. Until then the facts of the case in hand need to be considered in an objective light, and not blinded by factors from years ago. It's the same as not convicting someone for an offence just because they already have a record.
8 years is quite a long time.
I am not making any presumptions. Nor I am convicting anyone.
But the company's very poor record - albeit from 8 years ago - increases my desire for them to be investigated very thoroughly - both through a criminal and a regulatory route, with a prosecution brought if there is a realistic chance of prosecution, and the company's license removed if at all possible (and assuming some new facts don't come to light).
And I certainly don't think it's wrong for us to refer to, or link to, the little information on the safety records of haulage companies that is in the public domain. Ideally, there would be a database where all relevant information was readily accessible.
A legitimate and fair investigation on the basis of this case MUST be based on the facts of this case, and not on previous issues. However if anything untoward is established, the penalty should be all encompassing.
I think we can agree that we would like to see the relevant authrities taking a closer look though. I am still shocked that this chap was in a position to be in charge of an HGV.0 -
I want to see his girlfriend come out of the woodwork again to defend him now.
F*cker deserves to rot.0 -
W1 wrote:I think we can agree that we would like to see the relevant authrities taking a closer look though.
Agreed. And just as the track record from eight years ago would add culpability if guilt was established, clear signs that the firm had since cleaned up its act (this case aside), would provide a small amount of mitigation.0 -
I wish we had more comprehensive reporting of the case. One thing I'd like to know is if Catriona was in the (very badly marked) ASL, and whether Putz stopped in it too (pulling up either before or after her).
http://crapwalthamforest.blogspot.com/2 ... ction.html0 -
ooermissus wrote:I wish we had more comprehensive reporting of the case. One thing I'd like to know is if Catriona was in the (very badly marked) ASL, and whether Putz stopped in it too (pulling up either before or after her).
http://crapwalthamforest.blogspot.com/2 ... ction.html
I'm sorry but having ridden that road for the best part of 1-2 years that photo does nothing to demostrate the width of the road (which is three lanes - but a single lane less than 100 meters from where the photo is taken), the light phases, the looping and wide left turn or the bus stop which is far too close to the lights.
Also when was that photo taken I've seen that lights have no ASL and a visible Green ASL at various times of the year. Currently its blue.
It also does nothing to demonstrate the sheer volume of traffic and cyclists at that lights in the morning. Because the lights are congested, compounded by the bus stop, cyclists and mopeds can often find themselves stranded behind, infront or beside vehicles in all three lanes.
Frankly you have to be a freaking moron to just plough left, right or straight at those lights in the morning.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
From LCC.
"Dennis Putz was driving a tipper lorry operated by Thames Materials Ltd, a west London waste management company, which has a record of breaking safety regulations and poor maintenance of its vehicles. In March 1999 the Traffic Commissioner reduced its licence to only seven vehicles.
Thames Materials Ltd failed several inspections, the company and its drivers had many convictions. In 2002 the Traffic Commissioner tried to revoke its licence to operate lorries, but this was overturned on appeal.
LCC's lorry campaigner, Charlie Lloyd said "Catriona's killer should never have been allowed in the cab of an HGV.
"The managers and directors of Thames Materials Ltd should have known that Putz was a driver with over 20 convictions.
"As yet there has been no prosecution for corporate manslaughter after a road death. Surely the people who put Catriona's killer in one of their lorries should be held to account for their actions."0 -
W1 wrote:A legitimate and fair investigation on the basis of this case MUST be based on the facts of this case, and not on previous issues.
is that your legal opinion?
Just curious.
What if past issues were, in part, responsible for the lead up to the crime which this case is about.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
OldSkoolKona wrote:From LCC.
"Dennis Putz was driving a tipper lorry operated by Thames Materials Ltd, a west London waste management company, which has a record of breaking safety regulations and poor maintenance of its vehicles. In March 1999 the Traffic Commissioner reduced its licence to only seven vehicles.
Thames Materials Ltd failed several inspections, the company and its drivers had many convictions. In 2002 the Traffic Commissioner tried to revoke its licence to operate lorries, but this was overturned on appeal.
LCC's lorry campaigner, Charlie Lloyd said "Catriona's killer should never have been allowed in the cab of an HGV.
"The managers and directors of Thames Materials Ltd should have known that Putz was a driver with over 20 convictions.
"As yet there has been no prosecution for corporate manslaughter after a road death. Surely the people who put Catriona's killer in one of their lorries should be held to account for their actions."
Go, LCC, go go!!!! Go for the jugular .......... a corporate manslaughter charge against those running the company and it's owners.
What is the CTC saying about this case and the sentence given to Putz? Anything?Life is like a roll of toilet paper; long and useful, but always ends at the wrong moment. Anon.
Think how stupid the average person is.......
half of them are even more stupid than you first thought.0 -
Oops, fair point - sloppy wording by me (that makes it seem more sensational). I should have said if he was willing to flout his previous disqualification 20 (or more) times. I accept that he wasn't "caught" that many times.ooermissus wrote:To split hairs, I think he has been found guilty of 20 or so offences while driving disqualified - but that does not mean he was caught 20 times. On one occasion, for example, he was jailed after admitting 16 offences of driving while disqualified.
Your wider point stands though - he's already been to jail at least twice, and it hasn't deterred him.0 -
Uh, there's plenty of coverage of the trial, the cctv footage that showed how long she was in his view. Oh, and the legal system found him guilty.ooermissus wrote:I wish we had more comprehensive reporting of the case. One thing I'd like to know is if Catriona was in the (very badly marked) ASL, and whether Putz stopped in it too (pulling up either before or after her).
l
You're pretty sick to be questioning the victims actions.0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:I'm sorry but having ridden that rode for the best part of 1-2 years that photo does nothing to demostrate the width of the rode (which is three lanes), the light phases, the looping corner or the bus stop which is far too close to the lights.
It also does nothing to demonstrate the sheer volume of traffic and cyclists at that lights in the morning.
Frankly you have to be a freaking moron to just plough left at those lights in the morning.
I am bemused where you are coming from on this. We know some of what came out at trial (Putz's record, his drinking, use of a mobile, failure to look in his mirrors, failure to stop etc) - but much has not been reported.
I'd simply like to know more about what was established in court, such as whether the failure to mark out the ASL properly played any role in putting Catriona Patel in danger.
I'd also be interested to know whether any of the directors of the company, Thames Materials, were called as witnesses.
I don't have any axe to grind on this - but would still like a fuller picture.0 -
OldSkoolKona wrote:
Uh, there's plenty of coverage of the trial, the cctv footage that showed how long she was in his view. Oh, and the legal system found him guilty.ooermissus wrote:I wish we had more comprehensive reporting of the case. One thing I'd like to know is if Catriona was in the (very badly marked) ASL, and whether Putz stopped in it too (pulling up either before or after her).
l
You're pretty sick to be questioning the victims actions.
Really you are jumping off on completely the wrong track here. I think I was the first in this thread to mention the evidence showing how long she was in his mirrors. I have clearly welcomed the conviction.
To give another example, I'd like to know whether the judge gave any reasoning why he only considered this a second tier offence in terms of seriousness when he passed sentence.
But we don't get that from the few quotes that were used by the (I guess) two reporters who were in court.0 -
ooermissus wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:I'm sorry but having ridden that rode for the best part of 1-2 years that photo does nothing to demostrate the width of the rode (which is three lanes), the light phases, the looping corner or the bus stop which is far too close to the lights.
It also does nothing to demonstrate the sheer volume of traffic and cyclists at that lights in the morning.
Frankly you have to be a freaking moron to just plough left at those lights in the morning.
I am bemused where you are coming from on this. We know some of what came out at trial (Putz's record, his drinking, use of a mobile, failure to look in his mirrors, failure to stop etc) - but much has not been reported.
I'd simply like to know more about what was established in court, such as whether the failure to mark out the ASL properly played any role in putting Catriona Patel in danger.
I'd also be interested to know whether any of the directors of the company, Thames Materials, were called as witnesses.
I don't have any axe to grind on this - but would still like a fuller picture.
One would have thought that if a trial has taken place a verdict given that the picture was full enough to justify sentencing.
Anyway, my previous post was to point that the picture you posted does little to cast any light of what that traffic light stop is like in the morning. If anything I find the picture and the angle its taken misleading.
I also do not think from that photo alone you can determine whether the ASL was a factor. At that stop, what is more likely to be a factor is the three lanes emerging from one, the bus stop a little bit behind the person actually taking the photo and the sheer volume of traffic on the day and whether the ASL was actually full of cyclists when the collision happened.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:Have you ridden up to, stopped at the lights and ridden past the Oval traffic lights in the morning?
Or ridden on the opposite side on the way back from home?
Just curious.
Fortunately / unfortunatley not! I go straight through from Fulham to Mile end. I do stand by what I said though, you can get a deckchair and sit at pretty much any junction in London at rush hour and watch as dozens of cyclists pound up the side of HGVs or busses which are waiting (and often indicating) to turn.
@OldSkoolKona - I think you might have misread me I'm afraidHFidgen wrote:I never said she was to blame in this case
The blame for this one lies completely with the driver, it's pretty clear.FCN 4 - BMC CX020 -
DonDaddyD wrote:One would have thought that if a trial has taken place a verdict given that the picture was full enough to justify sentencing.
You what? It's not even legitimate for me to wonder whether the judge gave reasons for why he didn't think the offence was in the most serious category? You're weird.0 -
ooermissus wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:One would have thought that if a trial has taken place a verdict given that the picture was full enough to justify sentencing.
You what? It's not even legitimate for me to wonder whether the judge gave reasons for why he didn't think the offence was in the most serious category? You're weird.
Well, the proceedings were public. You could have gone along to watch.0 -
ooermissus wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:One would have thought that if a trial has taken place a verdict given that the picture was full enough to justify sentencing.
You what? It's not even legitimate for me to wonder whether the judge gave reasons for why he didn't think the offence was in the most serious category? You're weird.
I never said that did I?
What I said is that the judicial process must have captured a broad enough picture to justify the sentencing.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
It's 'weird' to wonder why this offence didn't justify maximum sentence? Mark me down as 'weird' too then, and proud of it."Coming through..."0
-
-
Clever Pun wrote:
It's grim to see that her comments did, indeed, have an immediate impact on Catriona's bereaved husband. Truly horrifying when they weren't just slanted towards Julie's supposed partner (Putz), but were actually outright lies and fabrications:My blog post of 4 July 2009 attracted a comment from “julie”, who described herself as being the partner of the driver involved, and made assertions about Catriona’s cycling which were at odds with the statements of eyewitnesses to the tragedy. This comment caused so much distress to Catriona’s husband Anish, that he wrote to me privately and explained his feelings about the matter. Anish and I have since continued our correspondence.
http://sedgemore.com/2010/11/justice-fo ... ona-patel/0 -
?
My reading of some of the recent posts is that people are taking offence at posters whose posts seem reasonable. Perhaps reading different intents into the posts (from past experience, maybe)?
I can understand such a case can cause sensitivities, but I think that everyone is basically on the same side over this case and the terrible circumstances.
hfidgen: I don't dispute your point, but I do question whether this was a sensible thread in which to make the point. You may not be saying that this is what happened in this case, but surely you can appreciate that raising it in this thread implies that association - whether intended or not? Hence the reaction.0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:W1 wrote:A legitimate and fair investigation on the basis of this case MUST be based on the facts of this case, and not on previous issues.
is that your legal opinion?
Just curious.
What if past issues were, in part, responsible for the lead up to the crime which this case is about.
It's just my personal opinion. If the previous failings did in part cause this incident then they would, of course, be relevant. But then what would be of concern to me is why nothing was done in the 8 years since this comany's last issues to prevent this accident happening if there were problems that should have been attended to but weren't, and no-one checked.
I was suggesting that the same process should be undertaken as would in a criminal court - which is that any guilt is based on the facts of the case at hand, and is not reached by being "persuaded" not by the facts, but by previous issues. That makes it a correct, fair and legitimate investigation.0 -
Mmmmm fair enough.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
Genuine question even if it sounds weird, but rather than ban lorries from city centres, can't we just ban them from making left turns?0
-
Wha?“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
-
rml380z wrote:Genuine question even if it sounds weird, but rather than ban lorries from city centres, can't we just ban them from making left turns?
Brilliant. Wins the thread.0 -
It appears that Thames Materials Ltd, the company who owned the lorry involved in the Catriona Pate casel, were involved in another fatality last night - a lorry crossed the A4 central barrier going through Chiswick and hit a black cab on the opposite carriageway, killing a person in the cab.0
-
redhanded wrote:It appears that Thames Materials Ltd, the company who owned the lorry involved in the Catriona Pate casel, were involved in another fatality last night - a lorry crossed the A4 central barrier going through Chiswick and hit a black cab on the opposite carriageway, killing a person in the cab.
Until we know the facts judgements shouldn't be made, but I'll be very interested indeed to learn the outcome of that investigation too. If you hear anything further please post it up.0
